The _really long_ Berserk Theory

[hbi2k]

Possibly there are some other gods than Idea, but all the evidence would point to similar, man-invented deities.

If nothing else, the Idea cosmology put forward in the Lost Chapters does leave the question of origin very pointedly unanswered; if humanity created God (that is, the Idea) rather than the other way around, then who/what created humanity? The answer doesn't have to be a "real" God apart from the Idea, nor is the Berserkverse' answer likely to be something relying on such modern ideas as evolution, but Miura's obvious interest in developing a set of philosophical / religious principles by which his fictional universe operates leads me to believe that the question is likely to receive an answer in some form or another before the end.

[Eldo]

Whether God does/does not exist in the Berserk world is not important nor is the creation of humanity, as this is not the focus of the story (nor is it implied that God exist). Idea was introduced because it is related to the God Hand, and in extension, the fate of humans (which shows that humans do not have 'free will', as it is all preordained). If Miura wanted a God in the story, perhaps he would have used it instead of Idea. To ponder whether God exists (when it is not introduced in the story) in a manga is pretty silly in my opinion. That's like questioning the existence of God in other mangas, like Naruto, One Piece, Zetman, etc. If you have to believe there has to be a God in each manga, that would be the mangaka.

It's futile to debate whether or not God exists or how humans were created. This is not important in terms of the overall story. Who knows. If it makes any of you feel any better, Miura came to me in a dream and told me that God never existed and that humans were created by technologically advanced aliens.

[lon3vvolf]

*points above*
That’s exactly what I was trying to get at. And for my previous post about Berserk being about a guy with a big sword, we all know is much much more than that. It’s about a guy with a HUGE sword.

Sadly I doubt the poster will be a regular to the forum. Though I've been here only a bit, it’s a little disheartening to see someone join, take a huge dump (in the form of a post), not wipe, and leave it unflushed. (Hopefully you get that I'm trying to say he'll come post more and develop his theory)

[Istvan]

Remember, Berserk isn't an anime about the relationship between God and the world... it’s about a guy with a big sword.

To a large extent, I would say the Berserk is very much a story about the relationship between God and the world, and also between the world and God, since Idea is the "source" of most everything happening in the story, and Idea is the God of Berserk. With, of course, Idea being also created by the world. I disagree with Creatine on the nature of the God of Berserk, and its relation to the world, but such a relationship seems to certainly be a major part of the story.

[hbi2k]

Whether God does/does not exist in the Berserk world is not important nor is the creation of humanity, as this is not the focus of the story (nor is it implied that God exist). Idea was introduced because it is related to the God Hand, and in extension, the fate of humans (which shows that humans do not have 'free will', as it is all preordained). If Miura wanted a God in the story, perhaps he would have used it instead of Idea. To ponder whether God exists (when it is not introduced in the story) in a manga is pretty silly in my opinion. That's like questioning the existence of God in other mangas, like Naruto, One Piece, Zetman, etc. If you have to believe there has to be a God in each manga, that would be the mangaka.

It's futile to debate whether or not God exists or how humans were created. This is not important in terms of the overall story. Who knows. If it makes any of you feel any better, Miura came to me in a dream and told me that God never existed and that humans were created by technologically advanced aliens.

Agree to disagree, I guess, but I'd say that the existence or lack thereof of God is pretty obviously more relevant in Berserk than (to take a random example) Naruto, simply because the latter (to my knowledge) never even broaches the subject of religion, whereas the former not only deals extensively with religious themes and imagery, but actually has a character who identifies him/itself as God (even if he isn't anywhere near to a conventional Judeo-Christian God).

I doubt that the question of human origins will be a central plot point or anything, I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised to see it addressed, even if only in passing. But as always when speculating about the future, that's just my opinion of the moment and I could always be proven wrong.

[Eldo]

Agree to disagree, I guess, but I'd say that the existence or lack thereof of God is pretty obviously more relevant in Berserk than (to take a random example) Naruto, simply because the latter (to my knowledge) never even broaches the subject of religion, whereas the former not only deals extensively with religious themes and imagery, but actually has a character who identifies him/itself as God (even if he isn't anywhere near to a conventional Judeo-Christian God).

I agree with you to some extent, that Berserk is more closely related to the religious theme, than, say, Naruto. However, the existence of 'God' (used in the context as the creator of humans) could not be justified sorely due to the religious themes, when it is not mentioned in the manga. That was the point I'm trying by throwing in random manga titles, albeit a tad flawed logic. Just because Being A exists in manga X, does not mean Being B has a chance of existing. It is all up to the mangaka's decision.

Idea fulfills the role of God in Berserk and proclaims itself so. Idea tries to give meaning/reasons for human existence, and provides the fate for each human. Whether another entity exists that is similar or surpasses the function of Idea is unknown, and therefore, the existence of such an entity could not be verified or justified and deemed non-existent. What we know right now is that the Idea exists, God Hand exists, apostles, etc. We cannot introduce new concepts such as 'the Creator', or a 'counter balance to the Idea of Evil', because it is not our world to do so, nor do we have the evidence to justify their existence. In summary, it is moot to argue the existence of another 'God', based on the reasoning that the manga has religious themes.

[The_Paya]

Nice theory, haven't seen one so worked in a long time, sorry that I disagree.

Something I cannot let pass silently:

(if Miura does not die before Berserk is finished!)

DON'T YOU OR ANYBODY EVER THINK OF THIS AGAIN. Thanks.

As many of the replies already stated these facts: 1. a 'Good' 'Creator' 'God' has not been ever presented on the manga so far, and I believe it will remain that way, and 2. Idea of Evil is what the name implies of itself, an Idea, created by men, as already explained.

As many remembered Wyrm because this long one, you made me remember of myself and this long post (thank you very much psi29a for saving these black pearls) where I presented another theory of life, which can be twisted enough to make a fit for Idea of Evil to exist, granted the humankind unawareness of this 'power' of its own, and their desire for reasons behind all evilness.

To Creatine:
Maybe it's the lack of Berserk for so long (hah) but I enjoyed your writing.
Being English also a second language for me, I can understand the frustration of not being able to express yourself in this medium (which has the plus that everyone here will understand what craziness are you talking about :+) as many of the other posters do express themselves.
And also please understand the desire of these forums readers and writers to have an elegant, correct and eloquent place to put these thoughts. It shows the respect we have for, and quality standards we believe the subject has.
Yet this doesn't take away from you the right (and the joy) to 'play' your ideas here. So don't be discouraged and (always with joy and arguments, not with fruitless discussion or hatred in your mind) come back here and talk or extend this (maybe fix/edit your post to be more readable for those hesitant to read it as well :+P) for our Berserkverse's pleasure.

[hbi2k]

I agree with you to some extent, that Berserk is more closely related to the religious theme, than, say, Naruto. However, the existence of 'God' (used in the context as the creator of humans) could not be justified sorely due to the religious themes, when it is not mentioned in the manga.

I absolutely agree with you; in fact I'd be sorely disappointed if the origin of humanity in the Berserkverse was explained by something as simple and conventional as a creator God above and/or apart from the Idea of Evil. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised to see the question addressed further; considering that a significant portion of Berserk deals either directly or indirectly with man's place in the universe, the question of human origin would seem to be relevant. How exactly that question will be addressed is of course up to Miura.
I'm not trying to offer up an answer here, I'm just expressing my interest in the question.

[Sortep]

I gotta say... this is my favorite first post that i have ever read... creatine came very provacatively and said things i hadn't seen discussed about berserk... besides the stupid theories thread.. but this was actually a worthwhile read.

[travla]

i have a theory on griffith and guts's role in the berserkverse. in the lost chapters,god speaks to griffith and says:

The Idea: It was established that you would be here since a distant past
The Idea: By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness
The Idea: and merging blood with blood
The Idea: I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are
The Idea: To pave the way for the times you would be born in
The Idea: I maniplulated History
The Idea: and created an appropriate context for you
The Idea: All the encounters you have made so far
The Idea: were a part of the destiny that led you here as well

so my theory is that god did the same with guts. he made guts as a cataclysm for griffith's transformation into femto.



i was also interested in the propechy of the white hawk. there is supposedly a white hawk (good guy) and a black hawk(bad guy,brings doom and shit). griffith is depicted as the white hawk for now because everyone had a vision of him and everyone thinks he a savior and maybe he is. griffith is dressed in white and shines, on another side, guts is always in black so you could assume that he is the black hawk. griffith did some bad things and everybody hates him but alot of ppl forget that guts killed a kid because griffith asked him to assasinate someone and to leave no witnesses.so im thinking either griffith is the good guy and guts is bad or that the fact that griffith looks like he could be the white hawk and that guts always wears black and looks like he could be the black hawk as no relevance.

we all know that guts is special but for now we can just theorize that he could be the black hawk, the white hawk ( even if he wears black and doesn't look holy like griffith ( maybe is armor would change color to white by the end of the series,who knows) ) or that god personnaly created him like he did griffith for a greater purpose.

id like to get your opinion on this

ps-creatine ,you post was looong but very interesthing. great first post. now excuse me as i go rest my eyes

[Istvan]

so my theory is that god did the same with guts. he made guts as a cataclysm for griffith's transformation into femto.


i was also interested in the propechy of the white hawk. there is supposedly a white hawk (good guy) and a black hawk(bad guy,brings doom and shit). griffith is depicted as the white hawk for now because everyone had a vision of him and everyone thinks he a savior and maybe he is. griffith is dressed in white and shines, on another side, guts is always in black so you could assume that he is the black hawk. griffith did some bad things and everybody hates him but alot of ppl forget that guts killed a kid because griffith asked him to assasinate someone and to leave no witnesses.so im thinking either griffith is the good guy and guts is bad or that the fact that griffith looks like he could be the white hawk and that guts always wears black and looks like he could be the black hawk as no relevance.

we all know that guts is special but for now we can just theorize that he could be the black hawk, the white hawk ( even if he wears black and doesn't look holy like griffith ( maybe is armor would change color to white by the end of the series,who knows) ) or that god personnaly created him like he did griffith for a greater purpose.

id like to get your opinion on this

ps-creatine ,you post was looong but very interesthing. great first post. now excuse me as i go rest my eyes

In regards to the prophecy, I'm not really sure which of them is which. One thing I think it important to bear in mind is that we're not really sure what the origin of the prophecy is. If it was someone who was influenced by Idea, for example, then it is entirely possible (even probable) that the White Hawk refers to Griffith, even if he is evil. On the other hand, if it had some other source (a witch maybe? or some other being that's outside of Idea's control, perhaps? who knows) then it could be refering to Guts as the savior "White Hawk", and maybe the colors refer to something other than their clothes. We'll have to wait and see.

In regards to Idea creating Guts, however, I'm almost certain that it did. Guts was essential to the plan, as the one who caused the destruction of Griffith's dream. It was crucial that his dream be utterly destroyed, and be destroyed in the right way for Griffith to be willing to turn to the God's Hand to regain it. For that purpose, I would say, Guts was created. Where it gets interesting is asking if Guts was supposed to die with the rest of the hawks at the eclipse (I would say yes, others would say no) and so is now outside of fate/Idea's plan. This is possible since the God's Hand mentioned during the eclipse that it is possible during such times for things to occur that weren't planned for. It's another question we'll have to wait and see to find the answer to.

[travla]

Where it gets interesting is asking if Guts was supposed to die with the rest of the hawks at the eclipse (I would say yes, others would say no) and so is now outside of fate/Idea's plan. This is possible since the God's Hand mentioned during the eclipse that it is possible during such times for things to occur that weren't planned for. .

maybe there is a third option for the "guts was maybe supposed to die" sentence. what if idea doesn't give a fuck about guts anymore. lemme explain. guts was born from a corpse,never knew is parents, was abused as a child and knew nothing but war,violence and hatred. you could say he had no life, no purpose of is own and idea didnt care to give him one other then to meet up with griffith one day. so im thinking that idea created guts as a cataclysm for the latter events in the eclipse but after that he had no plan whatsoever for guts. guts served is purpose, he could die or fight for the rest of his live for all idea cares. guts could now be a a little pion flying under the radar but that could proove to be a bad idea from idea hehe. neways only time will tell

[Istvan]

Possible, but given the detail of control and manipulation of everyone that Idea described when talking to Griffith, it seems unlikely that it wouldn't have a plan for every individual.

[God_Hand_Hater07]

i was also interested in the propechy of the white hawk. there is supposedly a white hawk (good guy) and a black hawk(bad guy,brings doom and shit). griffith is depicted as the white hawk for now because everyone had a vision of him and everyone thinks he a savior and maybe he is. griffith is dressed in white and shines, on another side, guts is always in black so you could assume that he is the black hawk. griffith did some bad things and everybody hates him but alot of ppl forget that guts killed a kid because griffith asked him to assasinate someone and to leave no witnesses.so im thinking either griffith is the good guy and guts is bad or that the fact that griffith looks like he could be the white hawk and that guts always wears black and looks like he could be the black hawk as no relevance.

we all know that guts is special but for now we can just theorize that he could be the black hawk, the white hawk ( even if he wears black and doesn't look holy like griffith ( maybe is armor would change color to white by the end of the series,who knows) ) or that god personnaly created him like he did griffith for a greater purpose.

This entire paragraph seems to ignore the personality colors of the two character, and focus entirely on there outer appearance, because while Griffith if in all white and is thought of as holy, his soul and ideas are evil and dark, and it seems like that while you wrote this you seemed to forget that Griffith is Femto and that its no real question that he is evil, being as he sacrificed the entire band of the hawk so that he might become a king, and your idea of guts being in all black he explains that as soon as he puts on the armor that he is going to be hunting thing that are dark so he must become like them(or something like that) and that while Griffith is fighting to become king guts isn’t in completely black, this sounds stupid but guts' hair is turning white he's not very old but he has been slaying apostles which are essentially evil which might make him some what holy, also being in all black was used to make the knights of the holy iron chain come after guts, the black swordsman, thus introducing Farnese and Serpico, and helping show you the flaws in the religious prophecy because in the very nature life things aren’t always as they appear.

[evilester_me]

Damn guys, you should write a book. I don't understand a thing you all are talking about, but it sounds profound.

I think someone should translate this thread and send it to the author of Berserk, i'm sure he would appreciate and maybe even read it.

[Facade19]

i was also interested in the propechy of the white hawk. there is supposedly a white hawk (good guy) and a black hawk(bad guy,brings doom and shit). griffith is depicted as the white hawk for now because everyone had a vision of him and everyone thinks he a savior and maybe he is. griffith is dressed in white and shines, on another side, guts is always in black so you could assume that he is the black hawk. griffith did some bad things and everybody hates him but alot of ppl forget that guts killed a kid because griffith asked him to assasinate someone and to leave no witnesses.so im thinking either griffith is the good guy and guts is bad or that the fact that griffith looks like he could be the white hawk and that guts always wears black and looks like he could be the black hawk as no relevance.

we all know that guts is special but for now we can just theorize that he could be the black hawk, the white hawk ( even if he wears black and doesn't look holy like griffith ( maybe is armor would change color to white by the end of the series,who knows) ) or that god personnaly created him like he did griffith for a greater purpose.

This entire paragraph seems to ignore the personality colors of the two character, and focus entirely on there outer appearance, because while Griffith if in all white and is thought of as holy, his soul and ideas are evil and dark, and it seems like that while you wrote this you seemed to forget that Griffith is Femto and that its no real question that he is evil, being as he sacrificed the entire band of the hawk so that he might become a king, and your idea of guts being in all black he explains that as soon as he puts on the armor that he is going to be hunting thing that are dark so he must become like them(or something like that) and that while Griffith is fighting to become king guts isn’t in completely black, this sounds stupid but guts' hair is turning white he's not very old but he has been slaying apostles which are essentially evil which might make him some what holy, also being in all black was used to make the knights of the holy iron chain come after guts, the black swordsman, thus introducing Farnese and Serpico, and helping show you the flaws in the religious prophecy because in the very nature life things aren’t always as they appear.

But then what you are ignoring is that the idea of good and evil and the perception of it are relative as well.
So while to you Griffith seems evil and Gutts good, to me Griffith might appear good and Gutts evil.
Griffith being good in that he is true to himself and follows through with his dreams, and Gutts being the bad guy who tries to kill Griffith and stop Griffith from accomplishing his goals. We would all like these ideal categories to be reconciable with reality, but it just does not work out.
Another possibility is that there is no really good and bad, but all just a creation of the human ego. While acts of being are just what they are, acts that are part of being.

[God_Hand_Hater07]

thats true, and were just going in circles. all were really saying is that the perception of evil is all matter of opinion and so us discussing it is all really pointless. because were discussing the intentions behind acts of other people when we have yet to see the final result of these actions.

[FightClub]

I have AIDS, Beastman AIDS, and I'll spread it to every good boy and girl today.

[Istvan]

So while to you Griffith seems evil and Gutts good, to me Griffith might appear good and Gutts evil.
Griffith being good in that he is true to himself and follows through with his dreams, and Gutts being the bad guy who tries to kill Griffith and stop Griffith from accomplishing his goals.

There's a major logic gap there, because while you might be able to make a case for you seeing Griffith as being "good", because he remains true to himself/follows his dreams, trying to claim that Guts is "evil" for trying to prevent Griffith achieving his goals is just absurd. First, isn't Guts being "true to himself" every bit as much as Griffith is, and so also "good"? Second, even if we answer no to the first objection, we're left with the problem that by this logic no one would be able to oppose other's dreams without being called "evil", which would also apply to Griffith. He should be called "evil" for opposing the Kushan Emperor's dreams. And so on. The rationale you devoleped here is just internally inconsistant and flawed.

We would all like these ideal categories to be reconciable with reality, but it just does not work out.
Another possibility is that there is no really good and bad, but all just a creation of the human ego. While acts of being are just what they are, acts that are part of being.

I disagree with this, but I think we already had a really long debate on the "are good and evil purely subjective, or are there objective elements to them?" and I don't feel like going over all of that again.

[Facade19]

There's a major logic gap there, because while you might be able to make a case for you seeing Griffith as being "good", because he remains true to himself/follows his dreams, trying to claim that Guts is "evil" for trying to prevent Griffith achieving his goals is just absurd. First, isn't Guts being "true to himself" every bit as much as Griffith is, and so also "good"? Second, even if we answer no to the first objection, we're left with the problem that by this logic no one would be able to oppose other's dreams without being called "evil", which would also apply to Griffith. He should be called "evil" for opposing the Kushan Emperor's dreams. And so on. The rationale you devoleped here is just internally inconsistant and flawed.

And that was my entire point, that there are no fixed entities. Rather a signified is a signifier in itself.

I disagree with this, but I think we already had a really long debate on the "are good and evil purely subjective, or are there objective elements to them?" and I don't feel like going over all of that again.

Neither do I, as my above comment should explain why.

[hbi2k]

As far as the light hawk / dark hawk prophecy interpretation, I'd say it all hinges on where the prophecy comes from in the first place. I see a couple of possibilities:

1.) The prophecy comes from the Idea of Evil, either through an Apostle or some schmo who was manipulated into believing they had had a divine vision. If this is the case, its purpose is most likely to get people to accept Griffith as a savior (light hawk), and to turn them against Guts (dark hawk) when/if he finally makes his move. This seems like the most likely scenario to me, because the prophecy is most often associated with the clergy (especially the Iron Chain Knights, who go after Guts because they believe him to be the dark hawk), and there are a plethora of examples in which their religion and the symbols surrounding it have clearly been influenced by the Idea.

2.) The prophecy comes from a witch or someone associated with them, possibly Flora herself. This seems possible if we accept that the prophecy is in fact supernatural in origin, since witchcraft is the only major source of supernatural power apart from the Idea / Godhand / Apostles. It doesn't seem particularly likely, however, that the pseudo-Christian religion that dominates much of the world of Berserk would accept a witch as a prophet. If this were the case, it's unclear which hawk is which, and what that says about their character.

3.) The prophecy comes from a seer like Sonia, whose powers are not explicitly associated with either the Idea and its demons or witchcraft. Since we still know very little about exactly how Sonia's gift works, it's tough to comment on how likely this scenario is. However, if this is the case, then it's entirely possible that Griffith is in fact the dark hawk and Guts the light hawk, despite their outward appearance. These sorts of "neutral" prophecies in fiction are often clever red herrings designed to lead the reader to interpret them in a literal fashion when what turns out to be the "correct" interpretation is actually entirely different.

4.) The prophecy is not, in fact, a true prophecy, but was invented by an insane, delusional, or dishonest normal human with no divine or supernatural insight. In this case, neither Griffith nor Guts is "really" the light/dark hawk, and all that matters is the way people's view of them changes depending on how they interpret the false prophecy.

5.) Regardless of origin, the prophecy does not refer to either Guts or Griffith at all, but two characters that either died a long time ago or have yet to be revealed (maybe haven't even been born yet). This seems like the least likely scenario, but you never know.

We don't know enough yet to make a definitive determination of which, if any, of the above scenarios is correct-- I'm inclined to go with the first one, myself, but only Miura knows for sure-- but it's interesting to notice that in the most plausible scenarios, the interpretation has little to do with whether Guts and/or Griffith are objectively either morally "good" or "evil."

[Brainpiercing]

I'd cross out no. 5, simply because it plays too large a part in the manga, and even if the roles were not meant for them, for better or worse I believe Griffith and Guts fulfill them. All the others are possible.

The trouble is: We have no way to decide right now, and those possibilities don't help us, much, either. We can still only make qualified guesses as to what will happen, and for me, until I see what happens in Elfheim, I think there are still too many possibilities. Guts might turn into the White Swordsman yet .

The only constant is that somehow he'll have to clobber Griffith's butt.

And even then, perhaps he won't? If Griffith turns out to be a saviour for mankind, will Guts absolutely have to go through with his revenge? The whole story is about a guy coming to terms with a dark past, now for the second time. We already have scenes with him talking to Griffith and not falling into a rage immediately. There might come a time when he will write off his losses and decide to live for the future, because a fight against Griffith will be self-destructive, no matter what. It will cost him more than all other fights have cost him so far. And if Caska regains her consciousness she might have a word in that.

[Istvan]

The only constant is that somehow he'll have to clobber Griffith's butt.

And even then, perhaps he won't? If Griffith turns out to be a saviour for mankind, will Guts absolutely have to go through with his revenge? The whole story is about a guy coming to terms with a dark past, now for the second time. We already have scenes with him talking to Griffith and not falling into a rage immediately. There might come a time when he will write off his losses and decide to live for the future, because a fight against Griffith will be self-destructive, no matter what. It will cost him more than all other fights have cost him so far. And if Caska regains her consciousness she might have a word in that.
I'd cross out no. 5, simply because it plays too large a part in the manga, and even if the roles were not meant for them, for better or worse I believe Griffith and Guts fulfill them. All the others are possible.

Always possible, but the problem I have with this idea is the brand. The brand means that when he dies, his soul will be sucked into hell, and the only way (that we know of) that he might be able to avoid that fate is to kill Griffith. This will also, of course, apply to Caska, so he'd probably be even more unwilling to let it go. This problem would have to be resolved before I could see even a possibility of Guts not trying to kill Griffith. Maybe Griffith could somehow "remove" the brand, to avoid this problem, but that would seem to me to be a really cheap cop out. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what Miura comes up with.

[Brainpiercing]

Always possible, but the problem I have with this idea is the brand. The brand means that when he dies, his soul will be sucked into hell, and the only way (that we know of) that he might be able to avoid that fate is to kill Griffith. This will also, of course, apply to Caska, so he'd probably be even more unwilling to let it go. This problem would have to be resolved before I could see even a possibility of Guts not trying to kill Griffith. Maybe Griffith could somehow "remove" the brand, to avoid this problem, but that would seem to me to be a really cheap cop out. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what Miura comes up with.

True, I had forgotten that. It would make a strong motivation. But maybe Elfheim can do something about that, too?

[Istvan]

True, I had forgotten that. It would make a strong motivation. But maybe Elfheim can do something about that, too?

Again, possible, but after the way that Flora talked about the magic of the brand, it seems unlikely, and again, to me it would just seem like such a cop out for it to be solved so easily, after all the build up its recieved.