Intersting Bush Fact

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Femto
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Post by Femto »

Don't worry, you'll never offend anyone by posting your thoughts, and whoever does get offended deserves to get bitchslapped.

I disagree with you though. First of all, I didn't say that we didn't act on instinct, I said that we were different than animals who act purely on instinct. We might instinctively try to help someone close to us who is in danger, but don't confuse instinct with emotions. Instinct is what would make us jump at the situation, but it would be our emotions and our feelings towards that person that would cause us to act instinctively in the first place. We don't feel anger or sorrow because or our instincts.

And like I said, we might scientifically be animals, but there is a good reason why we are at the top of the food chain. Call it logic, curiosity, intelligence, common sense, whatever it is, is what differences us from animals and what puts us above them. We are not governed by instinct, but by rules, laws and society.

And what I was trying to say with my "ends justify the means" thing, is that I find it difficult to be so one-sided on something as difficult as the lives of individuals, specially when someone close to you is involved. The truth is that there is no simple answer to this, just ideas to help us cope with this fucked-up world more easily. I'll tell right now though, fuck anyone who tries to take the life of someone close to me for "a greater good".

BTW, I can't think of one major decision in my life that was done out of instinct, and I think most people can say the same.
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Post by Arresty »

Sorry misread you first post. Yeah we do react on both, was thinking you said only logic.

Also my thing about grouping emotion and instinct together was more of them both being something that opposes logic. There are differnces, but I was grouping them together. As in apples and oranges are different but htey both are fruits. There are alot of differences between them, though they are closely linked. When you react instinctivly it is always tied with emotion, whether anger or fear or love.
Femto wrote:BTW, I can't think of one major decision in my life that was done out of instinct, and I think most people can say the same.
Oh on this one I was mainly meaning emotion. I said both, and then followed it up by saying I grouped them both together. I did it that way because I was mainly meaning emotion. I was more meaning that we make many major dicisions based off of emotion(instinct woudl be bad for making a major dicisions). Missed the logic on that sentance the first time. I guess what I was more getting at is that our lives our governed by our emotions as well as logic. When we decide what school to go to what job to take, it is partly decided by which one makes more sense (logic) and which one will make me happier, or seems easier, etc. (emotion). We make our dicisions based on the two. I believe that sometimes emotion hinders us from making the best dicisions, and I guess that was were I was saying tha we really are not that elite. But I think all of this stems from my negative view of humanity. Since if you look at it we are really on top of the food chain. We made the world ours. We live everywhere on it. So in many ways we are elite, but my negative views on parts of humanity makes me sometimes think we are lower than some animals. So I just average it all together and say we are on the top end but more or less the same. Though sometimes, my feelings tend to be that we are the scum that plague the earth, and other times I believe everything is on earth for us. So it all depends. But saying tha tmakes me sound like an environmentalist vegaterian, which I am quite far from. I live off of red meat. Hmmmm beef. *Stomach growls and druel starts to form*
Femto wrote:I'll tell right now though, fuck anyone who tries to take the life of someone close to me for "a greater good".
Though I still say the ends justifies the means, I do have to agree with you on that one. But that is one of hte areas were we let emotion govern logic instead of letting logic dictate what is best for humanity. But that is where all the grey areas come in , as well as my belief that noone is right, that we all just have different versions of what is true and right. I just am someone who will admittantly contradict what I say is right. I may say that the end justifies the means, but if someone I cared for woudl be someone involved in the means, I would want to fight it, even if I knew it was the best solution, I woudl still want to fight. But then again you can't always settle on teh best, sometimes a good soluition will do.
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Post by Buzkashi »

Arresty : You sound a lot like David Hume man. Sheesh. And you little thing about communism would work if everyone used logic cant be correct. The reason Communism doesnt work is because people use logic. They say , " Hey frank barely even works hard but he makes just as much as me. Why should I even work at all if im just gona get paid the same". Communism does not allow competition which is why it cant work. And how did people figure this out. By using Logic :idea:

And I know that it seems that the ends justify the means. But eventually the means will come back and bite you in the ass. The always do.
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Post by Malvado »

I think Arresty made the best post in the world at that moment.
BTW, I can't think of one major decision in my life that was done out of instinct, and I think most people can say the same.
Ok Femto, not to sound mean or something but you live in the suberbs? Or just get along with everyone?
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Post by Arresty »

There are several problems to communism. I am not for communism by any means, but run properly it would be effective. One major problem is the leaders are greedy and currupt. They are doing what makes there lives better and ripping off the rest of the country. That is one major problem. And logically if everyone worked to there full potential it would be more benificial. That is what I was refering to. If you work as hard as you can and so does everyone else then the system works, but people are lazy and it breaks down. There are many other factors that make it suck, but those are two major reason it is in hte shitter, and using logic you could get around both of those problems. And I was also refering to logic to benifit everyone instead of logic to better your own lives. Where in tha case you were talking about it is logical in a way to benifit yourrselves, but if theh leaders were not currupted and everyone worked to there full potential it woudl be a better system. But in reality I like capitalism and democracy. I like having a say and I like having choices in what to do with my life. I don't think communism would ever be a better option, just that it would work better than now, if it was ran more logically. Some of its ideals are intelligent, but an ideal is an ideal, and when put into practice seldom works out because of human nature. Even capitolist societies took ideas from communism, moreso in europe where the economy is much more social than ameriica, but even here we use many socialist ideas that help better us. In the end the best is to take two ideals and then take what works in reality from both of htem and blend them together. Hence our modern capitalist system.
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Post by Eldo »

Communism was the greatest experiment in the 20th century. While it had a good concept, if failed in execution. Take a look it China's history. The dynasty was failing, and many thought a new system (such as communism) could save it. But there would always be people who could exploit it... :cry: Lack of education did not help that era either....
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Post by Libaax »

Femto wrote:Well, I'd just like to give some opinions of mine.

First of all, I do not think we are animals. Can you seriously consider yourself an animal when you are capable of talking about politics and the world like this? Not only that, but we have come far in science and philosophy, and are capable of explaining what little we can about the world as it stands today. We have curiosity, and are always trying to answer the important questions in life. We are not perfect, but we have all the time in the world to reach perfection. We might be genetically close to an animal, but c'mon, we are better than creatures that act purely on instinct.

The second thing I'd like to mention is that being too one-sided on something like "the ends justify the means" is a little biased. It's easy to say that when you or your loved ones are not directly involved in the issue. Think a little bit, about how you would think if someone close to you would have to die because of this ideal, this "ends justify the means". I'm sure your opinion would change. Mine did, when I almost lost someone dear to me in 9/11. It's not black and white, and there is no definite answer. We should just try to cope with everyday stuff, while trying to stay true to our opinions, even if they are insignificant in the larger scale of things.

As for Bush, I could care less if he's smoked weed or not. I mean, most of us have done it, right?

EDIT: just grammar and structure issues...

I likr your post cause there are many people who think that stopping someone like for exampel Saddam or the talibans justify killing all the innocent people that have died.



Our family back in the old country suffered alot after 9/11 cause a somalian man who owned a company that somalien all over the world used to send money to their family's. He was suspected cause of his name.
When things like that happen you have a hard time believing Bush mission to save the world...


I just hope something good comes from the things that is happening right now in the world,that we learn from our misstakes.
The ink of a scholar is worth a thousand times more than the blood of the martyr- The Quran
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Post by Arresty »

Well I don't agree with what bush is doing. I don't think the end result in this case justifies the means. I think bush is becoming the bully in the playground noone likes, but everyone is scared to mess with. There are people willing to stand up to him, but not directly. The problem that that is causing is Bush going after a few men kills many, and never finds the few. The other people are playing it smart. We need to find a different stategy then our current one.

Also for the end to justify the means the end must be worth enough for the means to be justified. Saving many lives by killing a few people justifies the ending, but killing many people to save a few is not at all worth it. Thats where all the grey area comes in. I disagree with the way we have handled most things post 9/11. I hate the fact I can no longer fly with a pocket knife, unless I check it under the plane. I don't like the way security in the airports is beefing up so much. I doubt they would use the same attack twice for starers, and secondly the way security works in reality is you get a new idea that will prevent any problems from arrising, but then someone smarter than you figures out a way through it. Then you block that way, and the next thing you know there is another way through. That is one of my arguements to why the movie industry shoudl not waste so mcuh money on encrypting DVDs, there are people out there smarter than you that weill always get through any system. I mean I don't mind the security increasing to some extent, but some things they are thinking about doing are just a huge infringement on our rigths.

I hate the patriot act with a passion. It basically gives the governement the right to ignore the bill of rights and monitor all parts of our lives, limit what we can do or say, or lock us up indefinately without a reason, just because we may be linked in some indirect way to a terrorist organization.
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Post by Femto »

Malvado wrote:I think Arresty made the best post in the world at that moment.
BTW, I can't think of one major decision in my life that was done out of instinct, and I think most people can say the same.
Ok Femto, not to sound mean or something but you live in the suberbs? Or just get along with everyone?
Funny you should mention it, but no. I was born in a third world country, and, while my life wasn't as fucked up the rest of the people in my country, things were very tight. I didn't live in the best of neighborhoods and I had somewhat of a rough childhood. I don't want to bore you with details, but when I say that I can't think of one decision in my life that was done out of instict, I mean it. I can't think of anyone in my family making such a decision either. People don't make decisions based on instinct. Have you?

The whole instinct thing is bullshit, all of our important decisions in life are done through thought and logic, even out of anger or sadness. Some might be wrong, some might be rushed, some of these important decisions might lie in the hands of a madman. Regardless, we choose what to do through thought not through instinct. We don't instinctively go to buy food when we are hungry, we realize that we are, and we decide to get something to counter this.

The only good example of human instinct I can think of, is the one Arresty made: if someone close to you is in danger, you will definitely jump at their help. I ask you this though, if this person were, say, your mother (and I really don't wish for you to be in such a situation), would you still jump to save her if you didn't know she was your mother? Again, it's not black and white, and the situations would differ greatly depending on your personality. You might be the kind of person who would help someone anyway, or you could decide not to, because you think you don't know her. You might not even care if she is your mother or not, the point is still the same, it wouldn't be a decision made out of instinct, but a decision made because of an emotional attachment to this person.

And anyway, are you implying that people living in a good neighborhood don't act on instict, whereas people that live in ghettos do?

PS: I'm sorry if I sound a little aggressive, I love these kind of conversations and I really get into it, and I apologize if I've offended you at some point.
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Post by psi29a »

Femto: Even on DP, you have always shown your prowess in reasoning. No apologies necessary.

I think it is great that we have turned a Bush topic into a much broader discussion. It shows that people do indeed think about this stuff. The deeper into this thread I go, the lengthier the posts are. Fantastic. :D

It just shows that not even one of us can agree 100% all the time with someone else. For better or worse, this shows that human history is about evolution of society, culture, environment, and etc. While there are idealists... the world is hardly an ideal place. I predict that in the future, it will continue to be non-idealistic.

You know what, I'm happy that everyday I wake up... and find that the world a heterogeneous mixture of thought, ideas, and creations. While they may clash, I would rather see it do that then see a monotonous singular world. Yuck.
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Post by Arresty »

psi29a wrote:You know what, I'm happy that everyday I wake up... and find that the world a heterogeneous mixture of thought, ideas, and creations. While they may clash, I would rather see it do that then see a monotonous singular world. Yuck.
I couldn't agree with you more.
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Post by Femto »

psi29a wrote:Femto: Even on DP, you have always shown your prowess in reasoning. No apologies necessary.

I think it is great that we have turned a Bush topic into a much broader discussion. It shows that people do indeed think about this stuff. The deeper into this thread I go, the lengthier the posts are. Fantastic. :D

It just shows that not even one of us can agree 100% all the time with someone else. For better or worse, this shows that human history is about evolution of society, culture, environment, and etc. While there are idealists... the world is hardly an ideal place. I predict that in the future, it will continue to be non-idealistic.

You know what, I'm happy that everyday I wake up... and find that the world a heterogeneous mixture of thought, ideas, and creations. While they may clash, I would rather see it do that then see a monotonous singular world. Yuck.
Exactly, it's great to able to discuss stuff like this and, even though we will most likely end up agreeing on disagreeing, it's good to know that we can voice our opinions freely like this. And I appreciate your comment psi. I was just being a little careful, I don't want this thread to turn into a flame war because I wrote my comments in a potentially offensive manner.
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Post by Buzkashi »

Like that one fool said, " I totally disagree with what with you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it."
A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion.
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Femto
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Post by Femto »

"That one fool"? I shall have to punish you for calling Voltaire a fool...
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Buzkashi
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Post by Buzkashi »

Yea thats who I meant, I forgot his name. I was thinking maybe it was Voltaire , I swear!!
A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion.
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Buzkashi
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Post by Buzkashi »

Hey guys why not like every week we change the title of this thread to another subject and discuss it. Like any subject . Whether it be politics or philosophy or history or some shit like that.
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Post by psi29a »

Bah, Just start a new thread. If we get to many, then I can start a bullshit sub-forum, or something equally tastefull. :P

You know, to stay on topic *grin*.
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Post by Buzkashi »

Ahh i see *wink* *gun* *makes little chik chik sound with tounge*

Dont call us we'll call you!
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