Evil Genius

Hands on buzzers, for 500 points: this democratic leader was overthrown in 1953 by a US-organized coup in retaliation for nationalizing oil resources previously controlled by the British.

Mohammad Mosaddeq... name the first monarchy the U.S. government overthrew... (And have you read the book, "Overthrow"?)

I ranted about this a bit if you remember Psi. Forgot the name (and the thread too), but the german poster with a Bezerk character who is some marsian looking baddie, kept saying stuff like how cold war is just irrelevant history (the short term memory of a hamster) and kept going about on the evilness of Islam and so on without wanting to look at the big picture of what makes people act like they do, what inviroment that has shaped them etc.

Fundementalism breeds and bred in places like Iran and Iraq exactly for the unstablizing fucked up shit the US govt did with it "liberating" policy (liberating them off their democracy), making it easy for the crazies to manipulate people in despair, or constant despair creating crazies (its not a suprise other muslim countries who have been at peace and are stable, dont show the same "inately evil islamic trait " as the dude put it). Its cause and effect, you have to take responsbilities for your actions, and not just yell they are evil now after walking all over them for decades (acting quite shocked of why they hate you).

They (Brits/US) liberated Iran off its oil by overthrowing Mossadeqh. Installed some perfectly typical dictator who spent more on his plaza then the national budget (but they were happy aslong as he threw kickass parties, and not to forget, handed over free oil). He oppressed his people so much for 2 decades that the only revolution they could join was the one of stoneage ayatollahs. Joined it before they could realise the only change for the everyday joe was just the lable of the oppression, they were too preoccuppied with just getting rid of the current one to get picky.

But no, its ofcourse just irrelevant history. Havent shaped how things are right now at all.

The western world (i.e. that part of the world that wanted to exploit the other part of the world as colonies) is responsible for the seeds of many of the fucked up pseudo-nations that exist around the world. Due to the cold war and the enormous craving for resources the US has its particular share in that responsibility, even though they had less of a colonial background.

The really important question is: How DO we take responsibility? And how much responsibility should we even take? How much responsibility should go to those people who are creating chaos and oppression now in the wake of colonial rule?

If the US are responsible for how fucked up Iran is now, what SHOULD they do about it? Last time I was angry that Buz glorified Ahmadinejad and his Bassij brigades, but this is a totally different issue. Shaka, you're basically arguing my point now. Average Joe in Iran is fucked, no matter what. Will leaving Iran to its devices really change anything about that? Not threatening Iran might be a start, because it drives people to the extremists. But will doing nothing make anything better?

Though it wasn't a great movie.....The beginning of the movie The Kingdom gave a great overview of how Western Policy shaped the Middle-Eastern Landscape. Though it is NOT like the US just barged its way in, regarding the Saudi's, "we just offered our help".

The Prince wrote:Though it wasn't a great movie.....The beginning of the movie The Kingdom gave a great overview of how Western Policy shaped the Middle-Eastern Landscape. Though it is NOT like the US just barged its way in, regarding the Saudi's, "we just offered our help".

I actually thought the beginning of that movie was also very informative. It framed the whole movie.

I think that first bit should be on the youtubes somewhere...

Looks like brain is talking out of his ass again.

Mad because I was glorifying Amadenijad and the Basij bregade? Get real. You came into that argument guns blazing from the get go. I had never even heard of the basij brigade until you brought them up.

On topic:

This was news to me actually. I had no idea previously that Iran was a democracy. It is kind of interesting though. Just the other day I was reading on Yahoo about Israel's plans of regime change in gaza. I believe one of the Jewish officials hinted that they were going to assassinate Hammas officials to try and give Gaza back to the fatah regime. Which is kind of funny considering Hammas was voted in democratically in a land slide victory by the palestinian people. The thing is that the west thinks w/o their leaders the palestinians will be docile and not stand up for there rights. But its not the leaders that make the palestinians the way they are, its the people. The oppresion they face is why they vote in leaders like that and its why Iran had its revolution. The people choose it and the people want to keep it. What the U.S needs to do is keep our fingers out of there lands and stop spreading fear amongst the people.

Buzkashi wrote:Looks like brain is talking out of his ass again.

Mad because I was glorifying Amadenijad and the Basij bregade? Get real. You came into that argument guns blazing from the get go. I had never even heard of the basij brigade until you brought them up.

On topic:

This was news to me actually. I had no idea previously that Iran was a democracy. It is kind of interesting though. Just the other day I was reading on Yahoo about Israel's plans of regime change in gaza. I believe one of the Jewish officials hinted that they were going to assassinate Hammas officials to try and give Gaza back to the fatah regime. Which is kind of funny considering Hammas was voted in democratically in a land slide victory by the palestinian people. The thing is that the west thinks w/o their leaders the palestinians will be docile and not stand up for there rights. But its not the leaders that make the palestinians the way they are, its the people. The oppresion they face is why they vote in leaders like that and its why Iran had its revolution. The people choose it and the people want to keep it. What the U.S needs to do is keep our fingers out of there lands and stop spreading fear amongst the people.

Say what you want, but the Syrians and Iranians have been using the Palestinians as pawns for a while now, with interests that extend well beyond that of the Palestinian people. No one has their hands clean in regards to the fear and hate being spread around through this region.

If by using them as pawns you mean helping out there brothers. Than yes. Yes they are. Muslims are like communists in that its more of a global thing than a national thing. Muslims believe that one day all the muslims will be unified under one Caliph like in the Old days. So of course they got each others backs.

Buzkashi wrote:If by using them as pawns you mean helping out there brothers. Than yes. Yes they are. Muslims are like communists in that its more of a global thing than a national thing. Muslims believe that one day all the muslims will be unified under one Caliph like in the Old days. So of course they got each others backs.

How nice.

That's why Muslims have been killing each in that part of the world for centuries, well before 1948.

What you just said means nothing to me. Try again please.

psi29a wrote:

The Prince wrote:Though it wasn't a great movie.....The beginning of the movie The Kingdom gave a great overview of how Western Policy shaped the Middle-Eastern Landscape. Though it is NOT like the US just barged its way in, regarding the Saudi's, "we just offered our help".

I actually thought the beginning of that movie was also very informative. It framed the whole movie.

I think that first bit should be on the youtubes somewhere...

Thanks, here it is........

Buzkashi wrote:What you just said means nothing to me. Try again please.

Face it, Buz, Pan-islamism is a myth.

The palestinians have been the scapegoats for every pseudo-pan-islamic plan of wiping out israel. They have not been helped as brothers, they are only good as a human resource for recruitment, because they have even less to lose than everybody else in the area. And the pseudo-pan-islamists LIKE them in this way, because it means readily available fodder. Had they been helped as brothers then Palestine would look much more like Israel, with functioning economy, functioning infrastructure. The palestinians have been helped more by the EU than EVER by the other muslim states around them. If you want to know what brotherly help looks like, look at Israel.

Kudos to B.P.

You put it better than I ever could.

Buzkashi wrote:
This was news to me actually. I had no idea previously that Iran was a democracy. It is kind of interesting though. Just the other day I was reading on Yahoo about Israel's plans of regime change in gaza. I believe one of the Jewish officials hinted that they were going to assassinate Hammas officials to try and give Gaza back to the fatah regime.

Ooooops.........though Hezbollah....not Hammas.

Despite not wanting to take sides on this issue, this was a good thing IMO. Dude had it coming.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080213/D8UPEOA80.html

Brainpercing (forgot your name), you agree now? Good thing, because the only thing you said in the other thread was trying to put down the influence western oppression has had in the region, and wanting to say nothing but how islam is evil, fullstop.

Buzkashi wrote:If by using them as pawns you mean helping out there brothers. Than yes. Yes they are. Muslims are like communists in that its more of a global thing than a national thing. Muslims believe that one day all the muslims will be unified under one Caliph like in the Old days. So of course they got each others backs.

Thats naive hogwash, Iran have little of interest to help other muslims. But to grow their influence, and in most particular empowering the shia minorities in ME to gain that exact power play they want. Iran and arabs hate eachother, in particular sunni arabs and Iran (more enemies to eachother then the west is to them). Clear enemies in many regards (ask dear little Saudis what they think of Iran). Iran tries to to destabilize and gain influence by supporting shia milias like Hizbollah and smaller ones across the ME.

They dont even need to be shia vs sunni thing for the regims,countries and muslims in general in this region to be anything but allies. Its all a charade. They mostly come with rhetorics to show support for fellow muslims wether its in ME (palestine,Iraq) or africa, but in general do nothing, or the opposite, make it worse for them (like in africa, they oppenly say they support the plight of muslim africans, like in Somalia, but in reality support destruction and war for their little power plays sake...empty rhetorics).

Sadly besides soliditarian rhetorics, us muslims have little of eachothers backs, too quick to find ways to backstab eachother. Pan-islamism doesnt go beyond the empathic words of the Quran, teaching us to care and cherish your fellow muslims. But In actuality, besides showing sympathy to fellow muslims, its doesnt exist whatsoever. Its as bogus as Pan-africanism. Too busy hating and viciously competing with eachother to care two-bits about eachother.

If the idea that the U.S instigating the fighting between shia and sunni in iraq has never crossed your mind then your a fool.

Now that thats out of the way, Iran helping Hezbollah is the same thing as the U.S helping the Jews. I dont get how people denounce Iran for arming Hezbollah and not the U.S for basically giving the Bomb to the jews. Its goddamnridiculous.

Yea Israel just commited another crime and assasinated a hesbollah leader. Though I woudlnt be too sure that hes dead. Aparrently this dude was one of the hardest people in the world to trace. Even for the U.S. But this is some serious bullshit. A good thing Prince. Fuck man. I'm sick of all these damn Machiavellian thinkers.

Zulu: Sad to hear. I can understand though coming from you. Africa has been raped more times than Casca, eveb by arabs/muslims. Pan Islamism will happen one day. The Quran describes it during a time of such great oppression. My people have seen some of this already. When the Soviets came to Afghanistan the one thing that the people would not stand for was the Soviets Godlessnes. Mulsims all over the region stood up together to try and stop them (though it would not have happened w/o the u.s weapons).

Just so that we are all on the same page...

Iran == Persians
Iran != Arabs

From what I've read and heard, not many people like the idea Iran meddling in the affairs of it's neighbors to the east and south-east.

Then again, no one likes other States messing in the affairs of other sovereign countries.

I seriously doubt we can 'fix' this in our lifetime, let alone it being fixed at all.

psi29a wrote:Just so that we are all on the same page...

Iran == Persians
Iran != Arabs

Pfft, psi, not all of us are complete morons.

I've seen 300.

Buzkashi wrote:If the idea that the U.S instigating the fighting between shia and sunni in iraq has never crossed your mind then your a fool.

Now that thats out of the way, Iran helping Hezbollah is the same thing as the U.S helping the Jews. I dont get how people denounce Iran for arming Hezbollah and not the U.S for basically giving the Bomb to the jews. Its goddamnridiculous.

Yea Israel just commited another crime and assasinated a hesbollah leader. Though I woudlnt be too sure that hes dead. Aparrently this dude was one of the hardest people in the world to trace. Even for the U.S. But this is some serious bullshit. A good thing Prince. Fuck man. I'm sick of all these damn Machiavellian thinkers.

Zulu: Sad to hear. I can understand though coming from you. Africa has been raped more times than Casca, eveb by arabs/muslims. Pan Islamism will happen one day. The Quran describes it during a time of such great oppression. My people have seen some of this already. When the Soviets came to Afghanistan the one thing that the people would not stand for was the Soviets Godlessnes. Mulsims all over the region stood up together to try and stop them (though it would not have happened w/o the u.s weapons).

No one, especially me, said its ok what the US does or anything in that scope. The shia-sunni conflict is over an millenia old (grown from sunnis the big majority, oppressing the shias etc) and has little to do with the US instigating it (the fool is the one who wants to simplify a millenia old conflict to frigging US thing). Their main issue is they were uninformed on how much the shias and sunnis in Iraq hate eachother, and thought it would be no problem for them living under the same roof. Basically didnt think through it at all (as they allways do with their short term policies), and understimated how much they were waiting to settle the old score (The shia were fucked over under Saddam, and the US's main issue is giving too much power to the shia when they invaded, too much leeway for them to settle old scores. Instead of seeing the potential issue and trying to sooth it over gentle).

I understand if you want to believe in Pan-islamism, but that means little to reality. Its naive and historic revinionism to ignore the reality of ME. The soliditarian brotherhood message the Quran preaches means little when its not being acted upon. Fellow muslims or not, they hate, compete and kill eachother and have since a millenia back (Saudi's main enemy is Iran, the Arab leagues main enemy is Iran, despite saying Israel this or that, Israel doesnt threaten them in taking over ME, just like Iran wants to gain power in ME because it doesnt want to be walked over by the Arabs power players, except Syria whom is their unholy allies).

I mentionned Iran funding Hizbollah because it shows they do it to gain influence and power in ME. They try to instigate little rebellions in ME countries by arming and supporting shia militias (arming them in Iraq so they can slaughter the sunnis, not that the sunnis arent as bad). Thats real islamic brotherhood proof right? Doesnt need to be even shia-sunni thing. The Arab league is a petty joke of being all talk of backing eachother up, but constantly doing the opposite. They talk so much like Iran, of how much they want to support Palestina , but do zip. They mainly use Palestina as an verbal ammo against the west and Israel, but do squat for them (same fellow muslims who were tossing around palestinians like ragdolls pre-Israel state, they ran them off from their lands and treated them like second class citizens).

Muslims all over the region stood up to fight the soviets? Are you kidding me? Thats the kind of historical revionism I meant. A handful of Mujs and Jihadis did, their are quite the minority compared to the fuck all the other muslim regims did. Only countries involved was Pakistan and the Saudis, and Pakistan because they were neighbouring countries, Afghani refugees came in droves to their country, overwhelming them, they started arming and training them with the US. With US and Saudi money, Saudi's have so much money they just throw it out for PR reasons or whatever (How they act behind the scenes is most important, they throw moeny at africa too, while being the main issue to many of the conflicts involving african muslims, like supporting genociders like the Sudan govt). And Pakistan to protect themselves because they are right next to them. Its pretty naive to simplify it to Pan-islamism, and not account for the much more concrete reasons. Only really volunteers were few fanatic milias from other countries doing it for brotherhood reasons. Just like they did in Bosnia etc. But those are more of an a problem then solve any, not much of valid proof of the good of Pan-islamism.

Come back when you really want to discuss, not just repeat naive and simplistic crap. Pan-islamism is a noble idea, but the reality is the exact opposite. ME and relations between muslims in ME countries are anything but noble, its vicious and downright inflamable (just check history of how it has changed from arab empires to turks oppressing one another, the Persians being the underdog being oppressed, nothing but hate has grown from it, and it still exist, wanting to settle scores and controll eachother).

Eldo wrote:

psi29a wrote:Just so that we are all on the same page...

Iran == Persians
Iran != Arabs

Pfft, psi, not all of us are complete morons.

I've seen 300.

Phew... good to know! That was such a hugely accurate film.

It is all a power play, but people (States) involved want different things.

Shaka: Of course the arab countries around Iran dont like them. Maybe its because prior to the U.S invasion of Iraq the only 2 countries anyone could argue were not in the West's pocket were Iran and Iraq. Now sadly, its only Iran. Iran is pretty much the only country in the region that has any semblance of independence.

You say Pan islamism and Pan Africansim are impossible. I say they are inevitable. Whether now or in a thousand years, it will happen. There's way too many examples throughout history of common peoples who were once separate joining together to stop oppression, fight a common enemy, etc. Sure in the case of the Muslims it would probably be the biggest in history.

In the case of Afghanistan. It sounds to me like your knowledge of the situation during the Soviet invasion comes from maybe a little reading from a textbook, maybe your teacher covered it for a days lesson, or maybe you just saw Charlie Wilsons war. My whole life I've gotten my information from 4 Uncles who fought in the war. One of which was a Colonel who commanded a large battalion of tanks. Now I'm not saying your wrong. But you seem to be under-exaggerating the whole event.

Glad to see you acknowledge how Pan-islamism isnt the reality, but a pipe dream (shared religion or not, just like christians, we slaughter eachother enough to be united by common religion like some fairytale).

You question my knowledge of the Afghani war? Then educate me on how the muslims all over the region stood up together and tried to stop the Soviets (the global enemy so to speak, not only muslims). Involvement from outside: US guns and money, plus Saudi money and Pakistani ISI training camps and supplying of the US arms. Plus the few mujs and jihadis who went there to help the afghanis. They were a small number of fanatic militia men who were devoted to fighting the soviets. I fail to see where the muslims all over the region thing comes in (one doesnt need a hollywood movie, despite how historical accurate it is, to know this).

I wouldnt mind to be corrected if I am wrong on something, its not like I know everything in detail, just basic history. But you are being vague and questionning what I said without saying anything (You said you have relatives who were first hand involved in the war. That doesnt say anything because you didnt say how that is relevant, or what they told you). I am underestimating the whole event? (what are you saying If you arent saying I'm wrong) How? If you dont recall, what I objected to was you saying it was proof of pan-islamism. That you said muslims all over the region helped the afghanis. I disagree for already stated reasons.

The afghani people couldnt do it without the materials they got provided with, but they thriumphed 100% because of their unprecedented commitment and will to fight back the huge brutal soviet army despite all odds. They deserve the full credit and should be proud of it, despite being a pawn and little battleground for the world powers (who all had their little interests for aiding afghan people).

The U.S was the largest single contributer to the Afghans cause. But the countries in the region(Mid East, east Asia) matche if not exceeded the U.S's contributions. Nuff said.

Not really nuff said, the opposite actually. But if thats the best you can do, not sure why I bothered.