Ron Paul - Hope for America

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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by Aetherfukz »

Good job at double-posting...
In politics, the concept of left-wing, refers to a segment of the political spectrum that considers a high priority the achieving of social equality through collective rights (social), as opposed to purely individual interests (private) and a traditional view of society, represented by the right-wing policy. In general, the left-wing tends to uphold a secular society, egalitarian and multicultural. Depending on the balance of all these factors, the political left is divided into many branches ideologically.The term has been associated, in varying degrees, with Social liberalism (as opposed to Classical), American Liberalism, Canadian Liberalism, some forms of Populism, Social Democracy, Socialism, Communism, Marxism, Syndicalism, Communalism, Communitarianism, Libertarian Socialism, Anarchism, Left-Libertarianism, Anti-colonialism, Green Politics, Progressivism, and the Religious Left.
In politics, right-wing, the political right, and the right are terms used in the spectrum of left-right politics, and much like the opposite appellation of left-wing, it has a broad variety of definitions. However, it is generally used to refer to the segments of the political spectrum often associated with any of several strains of Conservatism, Traditionalism, Fascism, Totalitarianism, Monarchism, Right-libertarianism, Corporatism, the Religious Right, Nationalism, Militarism, Producerism, Nativism, or simply Reactionism for the sake of being the opposite of left-wing politics.
So yeah, while there are racist and sexist people bound to come up in any demographic, I do think that there are quite a bit more republican than democrat. If, in your heart, you do not like foreigners or women with rights, why would you choose to side for the party which stands for those? You'd much rather side with the party that represents your views.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

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Bill Clinton was impeached, but on perjury. In fact was the second president impeached.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by Starnum »

My bad, he wasn't actually removed from office though, which is what I was thinking that meant, but I guess not, so nevermind.

Also, I don't think it matters which "news source" you get your information from. It's naive to think that the media, in any form, isn't controlled and manipulated.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by The Prince »

Aetherfukz wrote:Good job at double-posting...
In politics, the concept of left-wing, refers to a segment of the political spectrum that considers a high priority the achieving of social equality through collective rights (social), as opposed to purely individual interests (private) and a traditional view of society, represented by the right-wing policy. In general, the left-wing tends to uphold a secular society, egalitarian and multicultural. Depending on the balance of all these factors, the political left is divided into many branches ideologically.The term has been associated, in varying degrees, with Social liberalism (as opposed to Classical), American Liberalism, Canadian Liberalism, some forms of Populism, Social Democracy, Socialism, Communism, Marxism, Syndicalism, Communalism, Communitarianism, Libertarian Socialism, Anarchism, Left-Libertarianism, Anti-colonialism, Green Politics, Progressivism, and the Religious Left.
In politics, right-wing, the political right, and the right are terms used in the spectrum of left-right politics, and much like the opposite appellation of left-wing, it has a broad variety of definitions. However, it is generally used to refer to the segments of the political spectrum often associated with any of several strains of Conservatism, Traditionalism, Fascism, Totalitarianism, Monarchism, Right-libertarianism, Corporatism, the Religious Right, Nationalism, Militarism, Producerism, Nativism, or simply Reactionism for the sake of being the opposite of left-wing politics.
So yeah, while there are racist and sexist people bound to come up in any demographic, I do think that there are quite a bit more republican than democrat. If, in your heart, you do not like foreigners or women with rights, why would you choose to side for the party which stands for those? You'd much rather side with the party that represents your views.
Good job at cut & pasting.

Anyone can post propaganda no matter which side of the argument.
But If you're going to post propaganda, at least make sure its good propaganda.

LOL...What a bunch of horseshit! I'd love to know your source.

Lincoln was a republican, and he was not all that bad.

Let me simplify (breakdown) things for you, your cut & paste job makes things way to complicated than they have to be regarding the scope of the discussion.

Conservatism, in principle, preaches limited government. While liberalism sides toward socialism. Where socialism is the underlying principle behind communism. Communism that has given rise to fascism (Mussolini) and totalitarianism (Stalin/Mao Zedong). Not to mention the socialism that gave rise Nazi Germany.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by psi29a »

I beg to differ prince, in my studies there was a significant case for Lincoln to be considered a tyrant that permanently harmed America.

Instead of trusting in the state's ability to do it's job, the federal government steps in to dictate terms. So any state is allowed to join the Union, but thanks to Lincoln, they can never leave. Talk about consolidation of power in the federal government, you wonder why we have terms like Unitary Executive. We can thank Lincoln for that.

Now, that being said... Lincoln had a choice. Rightly or wrongly, and we now live with it. History so far favours him because of the upfront moral victory of ending slavery in the US... which by the way was the only way he could 'sell' his war on the Confederate States of America.

Things to ponder, and no I'm not a proponent of slavery.

Do not confuse "National Socialism" (Nazi Party) with Socialism itself. Totally different and I think Killfile would slap you. I think you simplified it into mud.

Nationalism gave raise to fascism. National Socialism is what 'Nazi' stands for, not to be confused with Socialism itself. National Socialism is still Nationalism but with a fascist twist. However, Socialism itself as you put it does help give rise to communism, at least that is how Marx saw things. Sadly communism itself has never lasted long before become totalitarianism. There are many socialist countries in the world, and they work fine, but they are certainly not communists. Matter of fact, both Hitler and Mussolini (both fascists, read Nationalists) hated communists and went out of their way to kill them as well, hence Operation Barbarossa.

So what is Nationalism? It is when you take the flag, and wrap it around the bible/quran/tora and decree that your way is the right way. You slowly hand over power to one person, and the gentle slide into fascism. Remember, Hitler was voted into office over a period time with the message that he knew how to fix and make Germany better. He used everything at his disposal from symbols from the Roman Empire to Religion utilizing the Pope's blessing.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

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psi29a wrote:I beg to differ prince, in my studies there was a significant case for Lincoln to be considered a tyrant that permanently harmed America.

Instead of trusting in the state's ability to do it's job, the federal government steps in to dictate terms. So any state is allowed to join the Union, but thanks to Lincoln, they can never leave. Talk about consolidation of power in the federal government, you wonder why we have terms like Unitary Executive. We can thank Lincoln for that.

Now, that being said... Lincoln had a choice. History so far favours him because of the upfront moral victory of ending slavery in the US... which by the way was the only way he could 'sell' his war on the Confederate States of America.

Things to ponder, and no I'm not a proponent of slavery.

Do not confuse "National Socialism" (Nazi Party) with Socialism itself. Totally different and I think Killfile would slap you. I think you simplified it into mud.

Nationalism gave raise to fascism. National Socialism is what 'Nazi' stands for, not to be confused with Socialism itself. National Socialism is still Nationalism but with a fascist twist. However, Socialism itself as you put it does help give rise to communism, at least that is how Marx saw things. Sadly communism itself has never lasted long before become totalitarianism. There are many socialist countries in the world, and they work fine, but they are certainly not communists. Matter of fact, both Hitler and Mussolini (both fascists, read Nationalists) hated communists and went out of their way to kill them as well, hence Operation Barbarossa.

So what is Nationalism? It is when you take the flag, and wrap it around the bible/quran/tora and decree that your way is the right way. You slowly hand over power to one person, and the gentle slide into fascism. Remember, Hitler was voted into office over a period time with the message that he knew how to fix and make Germany better. He used everything at his disposal from symbols from the Roman Empire to Religion utilizing the Pope's blessing.
Thanks for the information. But your response kind of went off in a direction away from the initial argument.

You could call Lincoln a tyrant I guess, but he did what he had to do maintain the union and rid slavey. But as I recall tyrants don't have to vie for re-election.
Rightly or wrongly, and we now live with it.
You say that as if its a bad thing. ????

BTW...Socialism and fascism are each forms of statism, forms of government in which the government is given complete or extensive control over the lives of its citizens. While they may be different in certain respects they are certainly interconnected, and both exist on the opposite side of the political spectrum as far as Capitalism and Republicanism (don't mistake with Republican party) is concerned. Which was the original point that I was getting at.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by Aetherfukz »

The Prince wrote:Good job at cut & pasting.

Anyone can post propaganda no matter which side of the argument.
But If you're going to post propaganda, at least make sure its good propaganda.

LOL...What a bunch of horseshit! I'd love to know your source.
If you want to call Wikipedia and therefore the sources it cites like Forging Democracy: The History of the Left in Europe or Encyclopedia of the American Left, propaganda, well you may certainly do so, but I will still LOL at you.
Lincoln was a republican, and he was not all that bad.

Let me simplify (breakdown) things for you, your cut & paste job makes things way to complicated than they have to be regarding the scope of the discussion.

Conservatism, in principle, preaches limited government. While liberalism sides toward socialism. Where socialism is the underlying principle behind communism. Communism that has given rise to fascism (Mussolini) and totalitarianism (Stalin/Mao Zedong). Not to mention the socialism that gave rise Nazi Germany.
As Psi said, you are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Lincoln could be argued as a tyrant. And on top of that. So what if he was a republican but had some liberal views? Things change over time. In the middle ages women couldn't vote or had any rights besides bearing children. So would you say that this should hold true today to?

And linking socialism to National Socialism, LOL again - and you want to be taken seriously in this discussion? Those two have pretty much nothing in common besides sharing the name. And Socialism itself doesn't only include the state having full power. It can only be a worker class or council that decided what is best for the workers. Communism, true Communism as Marx had intended it, is an utopia that mankind as it is now cannot achieve. Yeah "real" communism leads most often to totalitarism. But that is not what Marx had intended. It was that everyone works for the greater good, and through that can achieve happyness and fullfillment. Was it his fault that people bastardized his invention? I don't think so. Otherwise you would have to make Einstein (and others before him) responsible for the bombing of Hiroshima.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by The Prince »

Aetherfukz wrote:
The Prince wrote:Good job at cut & pasting.

Anyone can post propaganda no matter which side of the argument.
But If you're going to post propaganda, at least make sure its good propaganda.

LOL...What a bunch of horseshit! I'd love to know your source.
If you want to call Wikipedia and therefore the sources it cites like Forging Democracy: The History of the Left in Europe or Encyclopedia of the American Left, propaganda, well you may certainly do so, but I will still LOL at you.
Lincoln was a republican, and he was not all that bad.

Let me simplify (breakdown) things for you, your cut & paste job makes things way to complicated than they have to be regarding the scope of the discussion.

Conservatism, in principle, preaches limited government. While liberalism sides toward socialism. Where socialism is the underlying principle behind communism. Communism that has given rise to fascism (Mussolini) and totalitarianism (Stalin/Mao Zedong). Not to mention the socialism that gave rise Nazi Germany.
As Psi said, you are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Lincoln could be argued as a tyrant. And on top of that. So what if he was a republican but had some liberal views? Things change over time. In the middle ages women couldn't vote or had any rights besides bearing children. So would you say that this should hold true today to?

And linking socialism to National Socialism, LOL again - and you want to be taken seriously in this discussion? Those two have pretty much nothing in common besides sharing the name. And Socialism itself doesn't only include the state having full power. It can only be a worker class or council that decided what is best for the workers. Communism, true Communism as Marx had intended it, is an utopia that mankind as it is now cannot achieve. Yeah "real" communism leads most often to totalitarism. But that is not what Marx had intended. It was that everyone works for the greater good, and through that can achieve happyness and fullfillment. Was it his fault that people bastardized his invention? I don't think so. Otherwise you would have to make Einstein (and others before him) responsible for the bombing of Hiroshima.
- What the hell are you babbling about?

And how was I wrong when you practically repeated/regurgitated what I said in my response to your silly little Wikipedia Cut & Paste job? Which basically revealed a complete fallacy in your silly little theory.

- AND WHAT A SHOCKING SURPRISE! Once again all you do is ride the coat-tails of someone else's argument, an argument that really had nothing to do with yours......Regarding your assertion that all racists (or racism) spawned from the Right. Hence the reason I brought up Lincoln in the first place....Considering he was the President who took the stand to end slavery.

You clealry come up short when it comes to relying on your own ability to form a complete thought of your own devise and sticking to it.......Whether its cut and pasting someone else's words or hiding behind someone elses.

I doubt you would have said a damn thing about the apparent "faux pois" (which it really was not IMO) I made in relating Nazi National Socialism (fascism) to socialism.

- Let's see if you really thought things through before talking like you know anything. Without relying on someone else to bail your trite-ass out at. Explain to me how this statement is false because as it stands it pretty much validates the point that you say I'm wrong about.

.....If you can't, then clealry your words are just as hallow as your head.

"Socialism and fascism are each forms of statism, forms of government in which the government is given complete or extensive control over the lives of its citizens. While they may be different in certain respects they are certainly interconnected, and both exist on the opposite side of the political spectrum as far as Capitalism and Republicanism (don't mistake with Republican party) is concerned."
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by Aetherfukz »

The Prince wrote:- What the hell are you babbling about?
What the hell are you babbling about?
The Prince wrote:And how was I wrong when you practically repeated/regurgitated what I said in my response to your silly little Wikipedia Cut & Paste job?
I'd like to know what the hell you are on? How on earth could you interprete my response into "repeating/regurgitating" yours when I completely said the opposite of your silly argument linking socialism to nazism?
The Prince wrote:Which basically revealed a complete fallacy in your silly little theory.
And which fallacy would that be? I cited my sources, you only voiced your "opinion" which isn't any opinion at all. Saying socialism gave birth to national socialism is just plain wrong. You made the fallacy of accident, also you use argumentum ad hominem a lot.
The Prince wrote: - AND WHAT A SHOCKING SURPRISE! Once again all you do is ride the coat-tails of someone else's argument, an argument that really had nothing to do with yours......Regarding your assertion that all racists (or racism) spawned from the Right. Hence the reason I brought up Lincoln in the first place....Considering he was the President who took the stand to end slavery.
OH NOES! I CAN HAZ USE ARGUMENTATION!
While I take others' arguments into account and reply to them, you seem to be fixed on your one single argument and not even listening to arguments others say...
The Prince wrote:You clealry come up short when it comes to relying on your own ability to form a complete thought of your own devise and sticking to it.......Whether its cut and pasting someone else's words or hiding behind someone elses.
Again, argumentum ad hominem, which is a fallacy.
The Prince wrote:I doubt you would have said a damn thing about the apparent "faux pois" (which it really was not IMO) I made in relating Nazi National Socialism (fascism) to socialism.
Yes. It wasn't a faux pas, it was a serious error, and a false premise.
The Prince wrote: - Let's see if you really thought things through before talking like you know anything. Without relying on someone else to bail your trite-ass out at. Explain to me how this statement is false because as it stands it pretty much validates the point that you say I'm wrong about.

.....If you can't, then clealry your words are just as hallow as your head.

"Socialism and fascism are each forms of statism, forms of government in which the government is given complete or extensive control over the lives of its citizens. While they may be different in certain respects they are certainly interconnected, and both exist on the opposite side of the political spectrum as far as Capitalism and Republicanism (don't mistake with Republican party) is concerned."
Aside from the argumentum ad hominem: Your statement doesn't include the possibility that Socialism != Socialism. There are different forms of it. Also I can't clearly make out the point you are trying to say in your statement, so let's brake it down, shall we?

Socialism and facism are each forms of statism,
That is true.

forms of government in which the government is given complete or extensive control over the lives of its citizens.
Partly true. While in facism and some parts of socialism the government has full control, there are other forms of socialism that put the control into a council or other insitution of the "peasantry".

While they may be different in certain respects they are certainly interconnected,
They [socialism and facism] are different in certain aspects, yes. Interconnected only in the part that links them to statism.

and both exist on the opposite side of the political spectrum
True.

as far as Capitalism and Republicanism (don't mistake with Republican party) is concerned.
That is the part that doesn't make sense for me. Facism and Socialism are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. Punktum. They are also both types of government forms. Capitalism is an economic system, while Republicanism is an ideology of government. While Socialism and Republicanism, depending on their forms, may fall into the same side of the political spectrum, putting Capitalism into the equation is like comparing Apples and Oranges.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by Shaka Zulu »

Never got the narrow minded "aw naaaah" reaction the word socialism has to americans and how quickly its referenced allways directly to communism (the communists regim there has been in history, non stick around on the socialism stage at all and just hop on the fun totaliarism part eagerly).

Guess its the same taboos and restricted political ideas instilled by the likes of Joseph McCarthy. Europe has countless socialist govts and pretty much every country has a Social democtrats party on the continent, without anything going to hell, suprising huh?

Seriously, there has been waaaay too much propoganda instilled on you when you try to somehow equate it with fascism and Nazism, instead of try to see it in practice and in reality. As said, way too many socialdemoctrats parties who has had run countries with socialism as its core, bit sad its in practice just simply and directlyreferenced to communishm, though atleast somewhat understandable (the core connection it has and all)...but also with the utterly non understandable such as Fascism and Nazism...
Last edited by Shaka Zulu on Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by psi29a »

Right, so this has taken a nose dive away from Ron Paul.

We can split this thread if people want.

Prince: from what I've read, no offense, but I don't believe you have a firm grasp of the words/concepts you are talking about. It is OK to talk about this stuff, and perhaps use this opportunity to learn but you need to remove emotion from it so that we are not just swinging our e-penises around.

My previous post still stands and the basis for it comes from published research, to be fair from academia, but still of higher caliber than what is in "history" and "social studies" books.

We can make the case that both Putin and Bush are fascists, they both meet the requirements and both came from 'democracy'. Wait a tick, so did Hitler. Fascists and Facists states (National Socialism) do not develop from Socialism.

It is better to state that after the Sino-Soviet split that China stayed more closely to Marx's communism than the Soviets who took the Lennists/Stalinist version of communism (Totalitarianism). Today, modern China is considered "Communist" but actually is reverting back to socialism ask now individuals can start and own businesses for private gain.

I do have a minor in history, and my friends are PhD candidates at VPI in Political Science. I'd be more than happy to involve them in this if you want, however they likely won't be as nice.

I'm not saying you are out-right wrong, but that perhaps there is some misunderstanding on what the words mean and the simplification you gave earlier was very bad.

PS: Lincoln took the stand against slavery because it was the only way to sell his War against the states that left the Union. You do anything you can to make sure your agenda has the best chance. Do not think that Lincoln didn't have an agenda, he wasn't a purely good man either. To blindly believe otherwise is an admission of ignorance. So, end of slavery is a good thing. However, he did it at the expense of state's rights which ultimately effects us here and now.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

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psi29a wrote:Right, so this has taken a nose dive away from Ron Paul.

We can split this thread if people want.

Prince: from what I've read, no offense, but I don't believe you have a firm grasp of the words/concepts you are talking about. It is OK to talk about this stuff, and perhaps use this opportunity to learn but you need to remove emotion from it so that we are not just swinging our e-penises around.

My previous post still stands and the basis for it comes from published research, to be fair from academia, but still of higher caliber than what is in "history" and "social studies" books.

We can make the case that both Putin and Bush are fascists, they both meet the requirements and both came from 'democracy'. Wait a tick, so did Hitler. Fascists and Facists states (National Socialism) do not develop from Socialism.

It is better to state that after the Sino-Soviet split that China stayed more closely to Marx's communism than the Soviets who took the Lennists/Stalinist version of communism (Totalitarianism). Today, modern China is considered "Communist" but actually is reverting back to socialism ask now individuals can start and own businesses for private gain.

I do have a minor in history, and my friends are PhD candidates at VPI in Political Science. I'd be more than happy to involve them in this if you want, however they likely won't be as nice.

I'm not saying you are out-right wrong, but that perhaps there is some misunderstanding on what the words mean and the simplification you gave earlier was very bad.

PS: Lincoln took the stand against slavery because it was the only way to sell his War against the states that left the Union. You do anything you can to make sure your agenda has the best chance. Do not think that Lincoln didn't have an agenda, he wasn't a purely good man either. To blindly believe otherwise is an admission of ignorance. So, end of slavery is a good thing. However, he did it at the expense of state's rights which ultimately effects us here and now.
I would assume you're a big supporter of Fred Thompson then.
Prince: from what I've read, no offense, but I don't believe you have a firm grasp of the words/concepts you are talking about. It is OK to talk about this stuff, and perhaps use this opportunity to learn but you need to remove emotion from it so that we are not just swinging our e-penises around.
(Let it be noted at no point did I address your post with an ounce of disrespect, nor did I disagree with its premise...other than it being outside the scope of what I was arguing.)

Why would I be offended? Who does not love being talked down to....... :(


That being said.....

As far as grasping terminology goes....

What exactly is your definition of Fascism? Because as far as I know Bush gets hammered by the media day in day out, do you think a fascist regime would allow this (among other things)?

And just because a country was once Democratic doesn't change the notion that for a fascist regime to work it has to shift toward the side of socialism. If I'm wrong please correct me.....

Webster's definition: fascism - a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

BTW....Under Putin those at the NYTs, CNN, CNBC, Hollywood, etc....would all be dead or in medical wards. And Putin's not that bad a guy, when compared to past fascist regimes.
Last edited by The Prince on Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by Shaka Zulu »

You DO realise Bush is called a faschist or such figuratively, right? A strong and colourful way to call him a undemocratic/totalitarian, which he is.

Just like Mune is a woman trapped in a mans body, Bush and others of his type (like Chavez) is a dictator trapped in a democratic country. Thankfully for you, Bush just does not have the means, the proper scenery/opportunity nor the mindset of the people with him to be fullfil his totalitarian wishes. You have whats called a stable (though somewhat corrupted and skewed) democracy, meaning it ( and the people) protects itself by "faschists" who wish to govern with absolute power. Protects itself with actual laws!

It might not seem a biggy, but one should appriciate it nontheless, because there has been way too many new, fresh and unstable democracies that has crumbled simply because it was too fragile to withstand and protect itself from the power hunger of those corrupted by it or are simply just downright faschists. Not to be harsh on dear old bush, but in your country, he is simply only able to tweak and alter some of the rules (not that it isnt bad enough, because he has attempted to and succeeded with major "undemocratic" changes to your constitution) to not create the kind of outrage that takes his position away from him. He can only slowly try to grind down the democratic operandi, not actually be so spoilt by having the opportunity to topple it or impose his will freely ( I wonder if he gets teary with solemn nostalgia when he reads history of past kings, or sees moderm dictators...).
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by The Prince »

Shaka Zulu wrote:You DO realise Bush is called a faschist or such figuratively, right? A strong and colourful way to call him a undemocratic/totalitarian, which he is.

Just like Mune is a woman trapped in a mans body, Bush and others of his type (like Chavez) is a dictator trapped in a democratic country. Thankfully for you, Bush just does not have the means, the proper scenery/opportunity nor the mindset of the people with him to be fullfil his totalitarian wishes. You have whats called a stable (though somewhat corrupted and skewed) democracy, meaning it ( and the people) protects itself by "faschists" who wish to govern with absolute power. Protects itself with actual laws!

It might not seem a biggy, but one should appriciate it nontheless, because there has been way too many new, fresh and unstable democracies that has crumbled simply because it was too fragile to withstand and protect itself from the power hunger of those corrupted by it or are simply just downright faschists. Not to be harsh on dear old bush, but in your country, he is simply only able to tweak and alter some of the rules (not that it isnt bad enough, because he has attempted to and succeeded with major "undemocratic" changes to your constitution) to not create the kind of outrage that takes his position away from him. He can only slowly try to grind down the democratic operandi, not actually be so spoilt by having the opportunity to topple it or impose his will freely ( I wonder if he gets teary with solemn nostalgia when he reads history of past kings, or sees moderm dictators...).
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by Shaka Zulu »

Considering the amount of bullshit and clear undemocratic crap committed by this regime, that basically pisses on your sacred consitution... I would say its more like power to gullible ignorance and apathy.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by The Prince »

Shaka Zulu wrote:Considering the amount of bullshit and clear undemocratic crap committed by this regime, that basically pisses on your sacred consitution... I would say its more like power to gullible ignorance and apathy.
*Yawn*

How's that for apathy.

Anyway......So what about this Ron Paul guy?
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by psi29a »

No, not a fan of Fred Thompson either.

Thanks. :)

You can keep quoting all you want, but nothing is as cookie cutter as you would probably want to believe.
Webster's definition: fascism - a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
Hmm, exalts a nation which is a Nationalist, stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader... that would be the Unitary Executive, which has it roots in Lincoln and pushed forward by executive branch and taken advantage of by anyone in that office, democratic or republican. Bush just happens to be the hot seat at the moment. By over-ridding FISA for example as his prerogative is awfully fascist like behaviour. Thankfully our court system has said this behavior is unconstitutional. Hmm, forcible suppression of opposition, let me point you to the Republican Handbook that talks exactly about this! Let us not forget the 'free speech' zones.

A recently distributed guide for Republican poll watchers in Maryland spells out how to aggressively challenge the credentials of voters and urges these volunteers to tell election judges they could face jail time if a challenge is ignored.

Now, if you want we can bring this up in another thread. There is a reason why perfectly reasonable people will stand up and call a spade a spade. You happen to disagree with this and that is quite alright. I remain unconvinced given the amount of evidence there is that America as a whole needs to un-fuck itself. This coming from someone who spent his life in the DC metro area talking with people on both sides of the divide.

So, what about Ron Paul makes this digression worth it? :)
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by Killfile »

Gads this stuff frustrates me. First let's get some definitions out of the way. I generally avoid Wikipedia on some of these because it can be rather politicized itself, but at least the first sentence of the Fascism article seems on point:
Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and social interests subordinate to the interests of the state or party.
Socialism:
Socialism refers to a broad array of ideologies and political movements with the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community[1] for the purposes of increasing social and economic freedom, equality and cooperation. This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by state, worker, or community ownership of the means of production, goals which have been attributed to, and claimed by, a number of political parties and governments throughout history.
And... for the sake of completeness, Bolshivism:
The Bolsheviks believed in organizing the party in a strongly centralized hierarchy that sought to overthrow the Tsar and achieve power. Although the Bolsheviks were not completely monolithic, they were characterized by a rigid adherence to the leadership of the central committee, based on the notion of democratic centralism. The Mensheviks favored open party membership and espoused cooperation with the other socialist and some non-socialist groups in Russia. Bolsheviks generally refused to co-operate with liberal or radical parties (which they labeled "bourgeois") or even eventually other socialist organizations, although Lenin sometimes made tactical alliances.
Now wiser men than I have described the political spectrum as a horse-shoe with Fascism and Communism at the tips, curved inwards towards each other. That's an apt description and tells us a lot about the ideology's histories. Facism and Bolshivism, while both totolitarian systems in Europe before the Second World War, had entirely different origins - both politically and ideologically. Fascism grew out of extreme nationalism, a scattered set of peoples with no real shared national identity who sought to create that identity in law, government, and - in the case of Nazi Germany - Genocide. From a set of scattered and independent states, unity in the person of a charismatic leader was all important.

Bolshevism grew out of a reaction to authoritarianism [edit: and aristocracy] and a profound envy of the power of industrial Europe. Casting off both the Tsarist government and the Provisional Government under Krensky, the Bolsheviks sought the party apparatus that marked the great powers of Europe but were unwilling or unable to compromise in their ideology with competing parties. From this grew the one-party system of Soviet Russia, at once very similar to but entirely different from the Fascist movement of Italy and Germany.

This is key historically speaking. Fundamentally Germany and Russia were not friends. Hitler's writings in Mein Kamphf demonstrate that, even years before he rose to power, Hitler anticipated a coming war with Russia. Though the two turned to systems designed to empower them militarily, they did so as natural enemies from opposite and entirely unrelated ends of the political spectrum.

Why am I going into such historical detail here? Because it is vital that we establish that Socialism is neither the foundation of Bolshevism nor Nazism. The Nazis co-opted the word "Socialism" and while Marx predicted that communism would follow Socialism, Lenin and Stalin's Frankenstein monster of a political system bore no resemblance to anything Marx discussed.

So what of American Fascism? We have conflated, unfortunately, the notions of Fascism and Nazism for reasons that are fairly obvious. The result of this is that Fascism is a "bad word" in American politics, even when appropriate. Regardless, the Bush administration certainly displays the hallmarks of a fascist party -- the manipulation of the media, close alliances with corporate interests, the marginalization of dissent through the impugning of patriotism, nationalism, an advancing security state, centralization of executive power, and yes - even the identification of a subversive "other" to justify these encroachments upon liberty.

But note how Fascism's hallmark is the encroachment of government upon the personal whereas socialism's hallmark is the government's interference with the social. Therein lies the difference. Socialism is about social government. Fascism, from the Latin "fasces", refers to the implements of state authority - and specifically the state's rights to punish and kill.

The two are almost night and day.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by The Prince »

Killfile wrote:Gads this stuff frustrates me. First let's get some definitions out of the way. I generally avoid Wikipedia on some of these because it can be rather politicized itself, but at least the first sentence of the Fascism article seems on point:
Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and social interests subordinate to the interests of the state or party.
Socialism:
Socialism refers to a broad array of ideologies and political movements with the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community[1] for the purposes of increasing social and economic freedom, equality and cooperation. This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by state, worker, or community ownership of the means of production, goals which have been attributed to, and claimed by, a number of political parties and governments throughout history.
And... for the sake of completeness, Bolshivism:
The Bolsheviks believed in organizing the party in a strongly centralized hierarchy that sought to overthrow the Tsar and achieve power. Although the Bolsheviks were not completely monolithic, they were characterized by a rigid adherence to the leadership of the central committee, based on the notion of democratic centralism. The Mensheviks favored open party membership and espoused cooperation with the other socialist and some non-socialist groups in Russia. Bolsheviks generally refused to co-operate with liberal or radical parties (which they labeled "bourgeois") or even eventually other socialist organizations, although Lenin sometimes made tactical alliances.
Now wiser men than I have described the political spectrum as a horse-shoe with Fascism and Communism at the tips, curved inwards towards each other. That's an apt description and tells us a lot about the ideology's histories. Facism and Bolshivism, while both totolitarian systems in Europe before the Second World War, had entirely different origins - both politically and ideologically. Fascism grew out of extreme nationalism, a scattered set of peoples with no real shared national identity who sought to create that identity in law, government, and - in the case of Nazi Germany - Genocide. From a set of scattered and independent states, unity in the person of a charismatic leader was all important.

Bolshevism grew out of a reaction to authoritarianism [edit: and aristocracy] and a profound envy of the power of industrial Europe. Casting off both the Tsarist government and the Provisional Government under Krensky, the Bolsheviks sought the party apparatus that marked the great powers of Europe but were unwilling or unable to compromise in their ideology with competing parties. From this grew the one-party system of Soviet Russia, at once very similar to but entirely different from the Fascist movement of Italy and Germany.

This is key historically speaking. Fundamentally Germany and Russia were not friends. Hitler's writings in Mein Kamphf demonstrate that, even years before he rose to power, Hitler anticipated a coming war with Russia. Though the two turned to systems designed to empower them militarily, they did so as natural enemies from opposite and entirely unrelated ends of the political spectrum.

Why am I going into such historical detail here? Because it is vital that we establish that Socialism is neither the foundation of Bolshevism nor Nazism. The Nazis co-opted the word "Socialism" and while Marx predicted that communism would follow Socialism, Lenin and Stalin's Frankenstein monster of a political system bore no resemblance to anything Marx discussed.

So what of American Fascism? We have conflated, unfortunately, the notions of Fascism and Nazism for reasons that are fairly obvious. The result of this is that Fascism is a "bad word" in American politics, even when appropriate. Regardless, the Bush administration certainly displays the hallmarks of a fascist party -- the manipulation of the media, close alliances with corporate interests, the marginalization of dissent through the impugning of patriotism, nationalism, an advancing security state, centralization of executive power, and yes - even the identification of a subversive "other" to justify these encroachments upon liberty.

But note how Fascism's hallmark is the encroachment of government upon the personal whereas socialism's hallmark is the government's interference with the social. Therein lies the difference. Socialism is about social government. Fascism, from the Latin "fasces", refers to the implements of state authority - and specifically the state's rights to punish and kill.

The two are almost night and day.
I don't get your avatar. Are you trying to be funny?

I appreciate your in depth background. I read through it (more than once), definitely learned a lot.

Your comments on George Bush munipulating the media, to back your fascist claims perplexes me. And if anything suggests you are reaching in your attempts at labeling him one.

And I wouldn't say Fascism and Socialism are night and day....maybe apples and oranges. Unless you are suggesting they can't coexist.
psi29a wrote:No, not a fan of Fred Thompson either.

Thanks. :)

You can keep quoting all you want, but nothing is as cookie cutter as you would probably want to believe.
Webster's definition: fascism - a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
Keep on quoting? I'm not the one you should be telling this to.

Webster's definition was the only thing I quoted.....aside from another person's post or of something that came directly from me in a previous post. And I did do it for simplicity sake, wasn't intended to confuse anybody.

I agree with the cookie cutter analogy. But can't help but notice it was prefaced with a personal attack, which I thought we were trying to avoid.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by Aetherfukz »

And there we are again, back in the vicious circle of your argumentums ad hominem.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by The Prince »

Aetherfukz wrote:And there we are again, back in the vicious circle of your argumentums ad hominem.
Why don't you explain yourself....instead of copping out with your silly little catch phrase over and over again? Take my last post for example.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by Aetherfukz »

That I did. My "silly little catchphrase" as you call it is an argumentation method usually used when one has run out of arguments.
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by The Prince »

LOL....I know what it means. And you take liberal use of it, at the point of being completely subjective and baseless.

Now why not address the content of my previous post, and tell me how it applies?
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by MrFelony »

Killfiles avatar comes from a t-shirt that basically plays off of the "communist party" idea. http://www.threadless.com/product/383/T ... nist_Party
The Prince wrote:
Aetherfukz wrote:And there we are again, back in the vicious circle of your argumentums ad hominem.
Why don't you explain yourself....instead of copping out with your silly little catch phrase over and over again? Take my last post for example.
I dont really think this applies to the argument besides saying aether doesnt really have much to argue so he'll just sit around saying silly things.

:P

but to actually address your argument that killfile is "stretching" to make a connection between bush and facism, you're pretty off. you say that using "manipulation of the media" as grounds for facism is a stretch and I would agree with you. However, killfile didnt just use manipulation of the media as grounds for why Bush is facist in nature, he used about 6 or 7 different qualifiers. Bush meets pretty much all of these pretty well. by only addressing one of these qualifiers, i believe you are the one who's argument is a stretch
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Re: Ron Paul - Hope for America

Post by psi29a »

The Prince wrote:
psi29a wrote:No, not a fan of Fred Thompson either.

Thanks. :)

You can keep quoting all you want, but nothing is as cookie cutter as you would probably want to believe.
Webster's definition: fascism - a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
Keep on quoting? I'm not the one you should be telling this to.

Webster's definition was the only thing I quoted.....aside from another person's post or of something that came directly from me in a previous post. And I did do it for simplicity sake, wasn't intended to confuse anybody.

I agree with the cookie cutter analogy. But can't help but notice it was prefaced with a personal attack, which I thought we were trying to avoid.
Pardon? Where is the prefaced personal attack in my post?

I seriously think you need re-evaluate your aggressiveness here and the point you are trying to make. Perhaps that is the problem, we are not making ourselves clear enough.

The real problem I had was this:
Conservatism, in principle, preaches limited government. While liberalism sides toward socialism. Where socialism is the underlying principle behind communism. Communism that has given rise to fascism (Mussolini) and totalitarianism (Stalin/Mao Zedong). Not to mention the socialism that gave rise Nazi Germany.
I hope you can see why, as I think any poli-sci professor would probably cry. I tried to give more context in my post above as to why this is wrong.

You later cleared this up a bit here:
BTW...Socialism and fascism are each forms of statism, forms of government in which the government is given complete or extensive control over the lives of its citizens. While they may be different in certain respects they are certainly interconnected, and both exist on the opposite side of the political spectrum as far as Capitalism and Republicanism (don't mistake with Republican party) is concerned. Which was the original point that I was getting at.
Thanks, got it. :)

Now my question is: Where are you trying to go with your posts?

Bush is on his way out, yay. Now comes the meat and potatoes which is, who is next?

I'm not a Ron Paul supporter, but frankly he is the only republican other than McCain that I can get behind. Sadly, McCain tried to stand up to the current administration but quickly was put back in line. Growing up as I did in a family of Marines of 3 generations, I have nothing but respect for McCain. If he or Ron is elected President, I hope he can rain in the ungodly spending habits. Romny and Hucklebee can both die in a fire for all I care.

On the democratic side, it is between Obama and Hillary. Obama has the freshman glow about him that rallies the younger folks, the idea that he hasn't been corrupted as much as the rest. Hillary has the support of the older folks and of course women because she is a woman! More to the point, she has been in the white house already, and has more experience than any other presidential candidate because she is the former first lady. The rest of the candidates are worthless.

I'm a switch hitter, I don't like things about both parties. I can find flaws in every candidate. So far the only person who has been consistent throughout his campaign and throughout his life has been Ron Paul, he demonstrated again and again that he has the economic acumen that all the other candidates lack.
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