Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

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Buzkashi
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Buzkashi »

By your logic you view the drug addict as worse than the dealer.

Terrorism isnt something that came out of thin air. Its a response to something. And untill you can really truly understand what it is you're going to continue being ignorant.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Brainpiercing »

Well then, please enlighten me. Why do some people want to kill hundreds or even thousands of civilians? Why do Shia and Sunni in Iraq continue blowing each other up? Why did two independant groups of people blow up (or try to) the london underground? Why did the madrid trains get blown up, killing noone but innocents? Why did a group of people plan attacking targets in Germany, even though Germany is doing nothing but helping the Afghan population? Why are the new Taliban closing down schools for girls and beating women who are not wearing burkas in Afghanistan? Is it politics? Is it religion? Tell me, I'm listening.

And you still have not stopped condoning sending children to mine fields. Your logic is so twisted it's a miracle you don't choke on it.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Buzkashi »

I dont know what your talking about. When did I ever say I condoned sending Children to war. I would never send my or anyone else's children to war. I was trying to explain to you how people in that region and people especially in the Muslim countries feel about it. Making there viewpoint visible as it will. That actually happens to be the case on much of this thread. You say alot of things about me, but actually you have no Idea where I stand on almost any of the discussed (though poorly on your behalf) topics.

You on the other hand have admitted to being a bigot. And you have already stated that you have no idea what your talking about.

EDIT:

I also find it very funny that this thread is taking over your life. It must be really really important to you. I'ma take a wild guess here and say that you havent posted in any other thread since you first posted in this one. And you always seem to keep yourself hidden. I can remember many times when I've seen you logged in for long ammounts of time. It seems though, since you started in this thread you log in for about a couple of minutes, post what ever the fuck you would like to call it, and then dip out. What are you scared of reading my response right away? Do you need to psyche your self out or something? Think it over for a sec? Frankly my good man, your a joke. You need to get a life and you need to get a haircut. Get your vagina out of my sandbox and go back to just posting DDL links.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Brainpiercing »

Ah, but wasn't Ahmadinejad your hero?
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Rolos »

Ok, before I get caught in the flaming crossed fire between Brain Piercing and Buzkashi..........
Buzkashi, I did my research (wikipedia search), asked my religion teacher about it and read again the Islam book I have in my house (its called "the prophet" and there is a very old man in the cover).
Islamic Iconoclasm

In general, Islamic societies have avoided the depiction of living beings (animals and humans) within such sacred spaces as mosques and madrasahs. This opposition to figural representation is not based on the Qu'ran, but rather on various traditions contained within the Hadith. The prohibition of figuration has not always extended to the secular sphere, and a robust tradition of figural representation exists within Islamic art
My past statement turned out to be a wrong interpretation from my part. Sorry about it, I intended it to be a joke but in the end just just an ignorant s insult.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Buzkashi »

To be honest I knew it wasnt in the Quran because I dont remember reading it.

I just wanted you to figure it out for yourself.

8)
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by MrFelony »

Brainpiercing wrote:Er, actually I do. I think it's wrong to bomb civilians, whoever does it. Whether by aircraft or by car bombs. I'd like to see the islamic world distance itself just a bit from what its more extreme members commit, instead of hailing them as heroes.

I shouldn't be going back there, but you were the one who condoned sending children to mine fields. If you think that is good, then we don't need to go on talking. But I've already experienced how you twist the responsibilities in this case. You're the number one hypocrite here. There is no objectivity in your words, you just select facts that suit you. You claim to side with the victims all the time, but I don't see that at all.

Oh, and, I don't buy into the war on terror. I'm just sick of bending over out of respect for super-sensitive muslims and then having my own values trampled on.

Good and bad, my ass, you really make me sick.
well here in america, a lot of muslims try and distance themselves from the terrorists who're bombing people and they have to suffer from the fact that just because a small minority of muslims are killing innocent people, that they will be stereotyped as a terrorist as well. just because someone is islamic, it doesn't mean that they agree at all with what extremist muslisms are doing
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by psi29a »

MrFelony wrote:
Brainpiercing wrote:Er, actually I do. I think it's wrong to bomb civilians, whoever does it. Whether by aircraft or by car bombs. I'd like to see the islamic world distance itself just a bit from what its more extreme members commit, instead of hailing them as heroes.

I shouldn't be going back there, but you were the one who condoned sending children to mine fields. If you think that is good, then we don't need to go on talking. But I've already experienced how you twist the responsibilities in this case. You're the number one hypocrite here. There is no objectivity in your words, you just select facts that suit you. You claim to side with the victims all the time, but I don't see that at all.

Oh, and, I don't buy into the war on terror. I'm just sick of bending over out of respect for super-sensitive muslims and then having my own values trampled on.

Good and bad, my ass, you really make me sick.
well here in america, a lot of muslims try and distance themselves from the terrorists who're bombing people and they have to suffer from the fact that just because a small minority of muslims are killing innocent people, that they will be stereotyped as a terrorist as well. just because someone is islamic, it doesn't mean that they agree at all with what extremist muslisms are doing
The inverse is also true, I want Christian Organizations (doesn't matter, perhaps 700 club or Liberty University... yourself) to denounce Westborrow Baptists and their members for being extremists. Road runs both ways, crazies are crazies regardless of their faith.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Brainpiercing »

The depravity of terrorism in iraq has reached a new height. Some group used a ten-year-old boy as a suicide bomber to kill a group of sheiks who were making an alliance against the iraqi al-quaida.

Are they your brothers, Buz? They call themselves muslims, I guess. Are they good muslims? At least they are now the same as your friend Ahmadinejad.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by psi29a »

Brainpiercing wrote:The depravity of terrorism in iraq has reached a new height. Some group used a ten-year-old boy as a suicide bomber to kill a group of sheiks who were making an alliance against the iraqi al-quaida.

Are they your brothers, Buz? They call themselves muslims, I guess. Are they good muslims? At least they are now the same as your friend Ahmadinejad.
Dude, that is a pretty low blow.

The distinction is that they call themselves Muslims, but they are not Muslims in the eyes of those I know.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Albator »

I remember taking part of a thread with the missed Zodd#1Fan, where he was saying that the extremists christians were in fact not christians. This is the exact same argument brewing here.

However I remember distinctly that a common opinion emerged: that it seems difficult to take away the faith of the ones claiming to be acting to the name of God or whatever the name that it is given. The question being: how can you decide that someone's faith is "lower" than yours, just because their action doesn't suit you?

Some people might not be considered "believers" or be hippocrites or politically motivated in the eyes of others, the point is that they use religion to do crazy things. And they might actually firmly believe that they act in the name of a superior being.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Brainpiercing »

psi29a wrote:
Brainpiercing wrote:The depravity of terrorism in iraq has reached a new height. Some group used a ten-year-old boy as a suicide bomber to kill a group of sheiks who were making an alliance against the iraqi al-quaida.

Are they your brothers, Buz? They call themselves muslims, I guess. Are they good muslims? At least they are now the same as your friend Ahmadinejad.
Dude, that is a pretty low blow.

The distinction is that they call themselves Muslims, but they are not Muslims in the eyes of those I know.
Well, I was always hoping to hear something like that from him. So far it hasn't been forthcoming. What it boils down to is this: The extremists ruin the image of islam in the eyes of basically everybody, but do you see muslims fighting them? Instead I see the shia and sunni killing each other in iraq, over technicalities of their own faith. Pan-islamism is so much of a joke. I'm willing to admit that probably the deeper motives behind those acts of terror have nothing to do with religion at all. But then why do so many people follow the hate-preachers?
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by psi29a »

Brainpiercing wrote:Well, I was always hoping to hear something like that from him. So far it hasn't been forthcoming. What it boils down to is this: The extremists ruin the image of islam in the eyes of basically everybody, but do you see muslims fighting them? Instead I see the shia and sunni killing each other in iraq, over technicalities of their own faith. Pan-islamism is so much of a joke. I'm willing to admit that probably the deeper motives behind those acts of terror have nothing to do with religion at all. But then why do so many people follow the hate-preachers?
The technicalities is actually pretty deep, in similar scope to the Protestant vs. Catholic aspect but on a much larger scale. We have much to fear from another Inquisition (of any faith).

If you have to ask why so many people following hate-preachers, you have to look at what is given to the population in return. The groundswell that lead to the October Revolution in Russia and subsequent millions of people who died, to the hate spread by fascism, and the hate spread by the American government against Native Americans. There is a singular political agenda in hate and it will use Religion/Cult/Group as a means or vehicle to that end. People will believe and follow those who promise a better life. When you have people willing to strap bombs to themselves, you know they have hit rock-bottom in their lives, they want a better life for their families and are willing to die for it.

Iraq is much more complex as we have Shia, Sunni, and Kurds living together in a 'country' with no (or very little) nationalism/self identity. The nation's borders where drawn by Churchill, making 3 very different blood-ken societies together. One cannot just make democracy, it has to evolve indigenously. So we have Al-Qaeda who's stated goal is to turn America into an isolationist country, to cease messing in the affairs of other countries and it also has the goal to start pan-islam nation. They can't really do the later in Iraq because the inter-faith fighting is so pervasive, they have failed to unite (through sense of nationalism) the Iraqis against the 'invaders' that American troops are seen as.

We have some who want us there to protect them from NGO (like Al-Qaeda), and we have NGOs who want to unite Iraq to drive America out of the region. This is not a religious view.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Shaka Zulu »

What I hate most in the world is ignorant people who take the easy way out of over-fucking-simplifying things with the smallest of notions. The fact that people like that are killing eachother has NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to do with religion. The turmoil is caused by quite inherently the history of Iraq. Shia and sunni has become an identifying badges to seperate eachother (very strong badges because religion is highly personal, and the difference between shia and sunni is not a pointless one), to have an us-vs them, but the cause of their hate is so insanely much about politics (good ol' seperatism) is utterly ridicolous to mention other factors. In this case the religion has a big part in one way, shias have been mistreated and fucked over for over a millenia by sunnis, thats where the hate comes from, until the europeans came, in many countries shias were second class citizens, buts ALL political reasons, the conquered people being oppressed, and never being able to settle those issues with the oppressors etc. Because the only thing between being a minority for a millenia and being mistreated and that now is...changing masters from Sunni to european emperialists carved up territories as they saw fit and created the mishap countries today, they never REALLY got a chance to settle their misgivings and heal from them over time.

In general, I cant for the love of me understand why muslims cant ever be anything else but muslims, like everything they do and breath is about their religion, its not (when all these conflicts are all political). Just everyone else, if they kill and slaughter eachother, you can betcha they have same pointless non-religious reasons the rest of the world kill eachother for (palestinians for example hate Israel for non-religious reasons, but I seen too many asswipes say because its due to religion, when there is a big minority of palestinian chrisitans who loathe them as much). But for some bizzare reason, someone who happens to be muslim is charicaturized as NOTHING but muslim, like he isnt even a person that may have other motivations and drives. Check the history and analyze the overall make-up of that, country instead of saying or assuming simply they kill eachother simply for religion (it can be a factor, but mostly an insignificant one). Christians have been slaughtering eachother since the religions birth, but I have hardly ever seen it being simplified as they are doing it due to the religion (except in Ireland, but that was pretty fucking political too), instead the political motivations of it all are correctly pointed out.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by psi29a »

Shaka, I'm sure you could have written/typed that post less vulgarly. Care to rephrase at all, please? I know these are hot-button topics and emotionally involved. This applies to everyone else in the thread too.

I don't know if you are venting at me, or someone else. I was thinking of the IRA (1970~1980s) bombings that was very much religiously and politically motivated.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Shaka Zulu »

FYI, thats just my style and not being too emotional, even if one emphasizes certain things in this because one is frustrated by simpletons ignorance and the influence that ignorance has in the world (that ignorance like this feeds generalisations, very dangerous generalisations that contribute to the fucked up state of the world). But was 100% quite general rant. Not aimed at anyone here, not even our residential simpleton in Brainpercing (over examplifies the kind of suckers that feed on generalisations). His crap just reminded me of how in general people and their actions can be described due to several factors (mostly political etc), but how when it comes to Muslims, somehow their religious affliation because so over emphasized and they get simplified so much that its like they are simple cardboards/shells that have no other characterism.

How would you feel like if whatever you did was said because its your religion? (said by the same western powers who has oppressed you so much for decades, but still get suprised when you hate them, and say you hate them solely because of religion...not because you fucked them over since modern times). The important factors that makes your inviroment the unstable, poverty stricken and depraved one it is, are all suddenly ignored as small factors, and everything you do is simply said as "oh, he is muslim, no suprise there".

Excuse me me if you mistook that for being aimed at you though (but just generally ignorant people). My misguided vulgarity is merely a lazy way to emphasize one points. Dont put much of serious intentions enough to make it clean in random posts like that, wouldnt think anyone care or take it serious. Generally when I disagree or aim it at someone spefically, I do bother to make that clear.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by MsNomer »

I'm sorry, I had to pipe in here.

A lot of information is being slung around here and a lot of it simply is not factual. I would remind everyone this is the internet and that don't make it true. People have been getting their panties in a wad for over a week here and some of it is completely unnecessary. I have remained quiet because there is no resolution to the issue of whether the conflict is religiously motivated or not.

Religion has certainly been used to advantage to motivate people to the cause of the terrorists. To those people that are persuaded to martyr themselves, their suicide has been sanctioned through the issue of a fatwa (a ruling on Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar), thus making it religious.

As far as I can tell through my research and many lectures I have attended, Sunni and Shia did not, as such, exist prior to the death of Muhammad. The word Sunni derives from Sunnah which means the words, actions or example of the Prophet. The Shia adhere to the teachings of the Prophet and his family or descendants known as Shi'a Imams. Therein lies the distinction and origin. Neither group existed as individual entities prior to the controversy surrounding succession after the death of Muhammadwhich occurred in 632AD.


And all of this is far off topic from where it began with the uproar over whether or not depicting the Prophet in an illustrated satire is permissible or offensive.

From where I sit, you all have ADD.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Shaka Zulu »

Atleast its somewhat understandable to say religious is an important factor when extremists entice desperate people (due to poverty or frustration due to war conflicts or financial oppression etc) to their cause. Even if religion is simplified as the only reason. But what I dont get is how would religion be said as the big reason when muslims fight with muslims. Is the same religion, but even in those instances the big political factors are ignored for the simplified religion one, we have way many too reasons to kill eachother to gloss it all under one frigging reason.


It would be embarrassing if anyone thought shia and sunni existed prior to the prophets death ;) Btw even there have some clear differences, but the main difference is a bit similar to catholics vs other christians disctinction, meaning Son of God or not. In muslims case, Sunni's thought the most knowledgable who can put forward the message should take over (those who follow the action of the Prophet the best), while the shia were more conservative and strictly wanted to revere the relatives of the prophet and non other ( a bit like religious kingship, instead of how pious you are being proven by merit, it would be solely by birth etc). And also, the Sunni' are massively more then shias. The shias have been and still are quite little minority.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by MsNomer »

The Shia do make up a minority, but they account for about 20% of Iraqi Muslims. That 20% is broken down into 3 distinct sects though. So while they are a minority, they are a large minority.

It is easy for a non-Muslim to dismiss the differences between Shia and Sunni because they both follow the same doctrine but where they diverge, mostly in their political hierarchy of the religion, accounts for vast differences in culture and understanding of the words of the Prophet.

It is much like the differences between Catholics and Protestants in that the rift in those religions account for different administrative procedures based on the understanding of their faith, and thereby creates a different culture. One allows for the religious leader of the congregation to marry, whereas the other does not. One recognizes the authority of the Pope and imbues him with the sacred communications with God, while the other does not. One sees the individual as having a personal relationship with God while the other imposes men of authority between man and God. One uses an individual's personal accomplishment on the material plane as an indication of his worth to God, the other does not.

They are only minor points when taken one at a time, but taken together create a different mosaic and ultimately a different understanding of the nature of God, man's relationship to him and the scripture.

I can not pretend to understand all of the implications of the differences between Shia and Sunni, but I know that a system guided by patrilineal principles is a much different culture than one based on meritocracy. You can not say that one is right and the other is wrong. All you can say is that they are and hope that both cultures can come to a compromise that fulfills the needs of both, while leaving both equally unhappy.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Shaka Zulu »

When I said shia muslims are a quite small minority, I meant world wide not Iraq. In whatever country they are in, they are a minority mostly except Iran (where the shia "seperation" occured).
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by MsNomer »

I wasn't making accusations, I was clarifying.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Shaka Zulu »

Hehe, so was I (did so because it sounded like you were addressing my point of them beng minority, meant only worldwide), dont feel accused.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Brainpiercing »

Quite frankly, putting all the violence in the middle east down to "oppression" of one or another kind is just as stupid as putting it all down to religion. I said before, the hatemongers probably have their reasons, which have nothing to do with religion at all. They want personal power and influence, or whatnot. But those people who blow themselves up, what are their reasons? Why do saudis become terrorists or even suicide bombers? Are they poor? Are they oppressed? Likely as not, they are just having an identity crisis, and instead of doing something useful, they think that killing people might just be the thing for them.
Why do british nationals from middle class families become suicide bombers?
I'll give you social arguments for Palestinians, for noone else.
Iran is so rich in resources, they could be just as happy as the Saudis, but they chose to follow their ridiculous religious leaders. Iraq was ruled by a tyrant for many years, and I can't imagine how iraqis could be unhappy about having him gotten rid of. But instead, they rally to the hatemongers, who want to cause nothing but chaos. And there are volunteers flocking to them every day, this I don't understand.

Maybe Islam is not the reason for everything, but adding Islam to the mix is like pouring gas on a fire, because it seems the seeds of violence are already apparent in the book or closely related sources. Of course other religions also have those sources, but the difference is, they don't follow them to the letter anymore. This is, to quote someone else here, the information age. Get some information, get some perspective. It's just a goddamn book.

I don't even want to start about the question of women.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by Starnum »

I agree. The world isn't so simple. You can't pin the problem on any one thing.
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Re: Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

Post by psi29a »

Starnum wrote:I agree. The world isn't so simple. You can't pin the problem on any one thing.
:PLUS1:

Many many small (and not so small things) adds up.
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