Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

[Gaiseric]

I'm failing to get your point. The Imams compiled works to show Western hate for Islam, Denmark especially, and because 3 of the pictures added in the 43 pg book werent from Denmark you say what. That the Imams were instigating it?

I am saying that the imams were instigating western-hate by adding those 3 images to their dossier. Thats propaganda. The danish cartoonists were simply showing that their freedom of speech won't be bullied by religion(islam, in this case). That is not hate for islam. Not illustrating mohammed is part of your religion. You don't expect us to pray five times a day and our women to wear burqas, do you? Though the images of mohammed with a bomb for a turban and devil horns were out of line, I think their reactions(the bombing of Danish embassies and death threats) justify them.

I understand that not all muslims are terrorists and that the bombings were done by extremists. All religions have extremist jackasses.

[psi29a]

Just so we are perfectly clear, try to be circumspect about the issues at hand. Obviously I've touch off a powder keg here that was not intentional, I hope that we can continue the discussion in a calm and respectful manner.

For the record, the state of Israel could have just as easily been made in southern Germany instead of carving it out of pre-existing Palestine.

[Brainpiercing]

Agreed. Move Israel to Bavaria. Fine with me.

[uncempt]

I don't have much to add to this but just wanted to say that I'm finding it really interesting. As the son of an atheist brought up Christian and another atheist brought up Muslim I obviously have opinions but don't express them well.

Brainpiercing had an interesting point about "silk-gloved" treatment of Muslim beliefs though. I do wonder if the reason that the picture of Jesus washing feet hasn't caused any offence is because this forum is more openly critical of Christians?

[Buzkashi]

Buz, decency is one thing. Calling for the death of someone who ridicules another, or even a group of people, is entirely another thing. YES it would be nice if everyone were nice and decent. However, it's not the case on either side. For quite some time muslims have been given every kind of silk-gloved treatment, because it seems they are easily offended. However, does it stop them from trying to spread their views across the globe? Why is it that muslims demand a lot of respect from others, while they are not prepared to respect others? In Denmark those caricatures are covered by the law. That makes publishing them a danish issue. Why not respect the state of Denmark and the freedom of the press? Instead, high muslim leaders call for the death of the artists. They also called for the deaths of a number of other people. Do you call that decency?

And one more thing: Muslims are far away from standing with their backs to the wall. In spite of the islamophobia you may be seeing in different places, muslims live a good life basically everywhere in the western world, and are free to practice their religion in any western democracy. EVEN in Israel there are many muslims who are not hindered from practicing their religion at all. However, there seems to be an increasingly large number of muslims who are not satisfied with the mere freedom of practicing their religion. They want to influence and control the entire populace, and IMHO, that makes islam a predominantly aggressive religion. It is, at present, far more aggressive than christianity. And it is this image that makes people draw critical sketches of muslim ideals. Before you go accusing those who criticise islam, ask yourself why they are doing it.

Yes. You're right we have been recieveing silk-gloved treatment. Damn I totally forgot how great we've had it all these years.

Listen. You tell me to respect the state of Denmark, to respect their freedom of speech. Maybe I should avert my eyes and just think that everything will work out like Neville Chamberlain did with Nazi Germany.

You're so quick to accept and respect any democracy, wait no your not. The west only accepts those that prostrate to it. Did they accept Hamaas when it was won a land slide DEMOCRATIC election? Do you show any respect to the great Amadenijahd who also is the victor in a democratic election. No you don't. So dont come to me like the Muslims are the aggresive ones. In fact, all actions against the west any Muslim reistance group or persons make is most of the time in response to some persecution put on them by an outside force.

[arke]

So dont come to me like the Muslims are the aggresive ones. In fact, all actions against the west any Muslim reistance group or persons make is most of the time in response to some persecution put on them by an outside force.

I'm calling shenanigans. It takes two is the saying. Such broad accusations don't help the conversation. If you want to point out specific instances, fine, do so but stop with the broad strokes. I would also like if you would differentiate between how the US treats other countries and how its citizens feel about them. And of course some people here aren't in the US and probably never have.

[Buzkashi]

There has been a lack of sources in almost every arguement in this thread so far. So you can call shenanigans again if you want. But dont pick on just me now.

[Brainpiercing]

Ah, but don't you see, we don't HAVE to be friends with Hamas. We don't have to be friends with Ahmadinejad. Obviously the west likes cooperating with people who are culturally close to them. Why is that wrong? If palestine cannot survive without EU money, well, they should be prepared to accept some conditions. In this case I don't even feel bad about it, because Palestinians chose their leaders. If they wanted to starve with Hamas, fine, but don't tell me the EU has to pump money into a state who's leaders openly proclaim the destruction of Israel as their policy. Israel is our ally. As a German I have to say this, we have every obligation to be an ally of Israel.

And in Iran it's the same. If Iranians want a government that likes putting the Sharia into strict effect, likes to bow to the same mullahs who gladly sent children into the Iraqi minefields in the eighties (the basij brigades), then well, they can go to hell with him. [edit] It seems Ahmadinejad was even a basij instructor, who trained those children to kill themselves in the minefields. [/edit] If you think he's such a great man, he will certainly be able to lead Iran in spite of sanctions imposed upon the country.

But that, of course, is not the whole story. Both in Palestine and Iran there are people who would just like to lead a normal life in freedom. Those are suffering because their leaders make things worse for their countries. Much more so since none of this even concerns religion at all. It's pure power politics. Maybe sometime muslims will understand that islam must become secular, too, to be accepted by rest of the world. However, more likely the radical minority will continue to pour oil in all the little fires of misdirected anger, and we won't see a peaceful solution anytime, soon. By doing that, the only people who win will be the hatemongers, on both sides.

[Gaiseric]

[Buzkashi]

Ah, but don't you see, we don't HAVE to be friends with Hamas. We don't have to be friends with Ahmadinejad. Obviously the west likes cooperating with people who are culturally close to them. Why is that wrong? If palestine cannot survive without EU money, well, they should be prepared to accept some conditions. In this case I don't even feel bad about it, because Palestinians chose their leaders. If they wanted to starve with Hamas, fine, but don't tell me the EU has to pump money into a state who's leaders openly proclaim the destruction of Israel as their policy. Israel is our ally. As a German I have to say this, we have every obligation to be an ally of Israel.

And in Iran it's the same. If Iranians want a government that likes putting the Sharia into strict effect, likes to bow to the same mullahs who gladly sent children into the Iraqi minefields in the eighties (the basij brigades), then well, they can go to hell with him. [edit] It seems Ahmadinejad was even a basij instructor, who trained those children to kill themselves in the minefields. [/edit] If you think he's such a great man, he will certainly be able to lead Iran in spite of sanctions imposed upon the country.

But that, of course, is not the whole story. Both in Palestine and Iran there are people who would just like to lead a normal life in freedom. Those are suffering because their leaders make things worse for their countries. Much more so since none of this even concerns religion at all. It's pure power politics. Maybe sometime muslims will understand that islam must become secular, too, to be accepted by rest of the world. However, more likely the radical minority will continue to pour oil in all the little fires of misdirected anger, and we won't see a peaceful solution anytime, soon. By doing that, the only people who win will be the hatemongers, on both sides.

1. Its not EU money not getting to Palestine thats the problem. I could give a fuck about the EU in general. Though it was Europeans that screwed the arabs in the first place its the U.S that keeps the spirit alive. 3 Billion dollars a year of our(U.S citizens) tax dollars go to Israel every year. That 3 billion is more than all all the aid we send to the whole world combined. Israel is the only country in the world that openly as Nuclear weapons without having to sign the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty. They were given this technology by the U.S. Israel has recieved more UN sanctions than any other country I'm aware of. However with the U.S's veto power that goes for naught. Israel to this day is still building settlements on Occupied territories in direct defiance of the Geneva Conventions. Not only do they destroy palestinian homes for these settlements but the settlements are stratigically placed so that villages are seperated, this makes it nearly impposible for people to travel or communicate with other villages. Because of this the Palestinians are not able to Unite. The Apartheid system of Israel is so inhuman and so demonic that in MANY cases pregnant women have not been able to cross the 20 meter walls built around villages even ones going through labor that minute. Palestinians only have running water a couple of hours every day. Electricty is regulated by Israel also. Palestinians are even barred by israel from constructing nearly anything other than homes that will eventually get torn down. All of this is done by Israel to ethnically cleanse the indigenous people of the land in the same way America did to the Native Indians. People think "ooh boo hooo poor israel, they want peace so bad but the dirty arabs just keep blowing them selves up". FUCK THAT SHIT. Israelies dont want peace more than anyone. They make conditions unbearable for the Palestinians in the hope that they will leave and join the rest of the 5 MILLION refugess that have been displaced around bordering countries for the last 60 years. And if they don't leave all is well because they will eventually die of starvation, exposure, or what is usually the case...israeli bullets and missles.

2. Think about what you just said. Iran was forced into using children soldiers and sent them into minefields. Ok. We've seen how the Media lies and twists things. Now assuming that this is true all it does is further show that U.S is great at making a common people destroy each other for its own benefit. God damn man dont you see that the whole Iraq Iran was the doing of the U.S. If we spent half the time we used to instigate the war to ease the tensions, there probably wouldnt have been a war.

If you could just spend one day in Gaza all the lies you been taught would be blown away like the Japanese in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

[Brainpiercing]

Wait a minute, let me understand exactly what you just said:

Iran was forced to send children to the minefields???? To put little plastic keys around their necks which should open their way to paradise? To fanaticise the weakest part of society to the point where they willingly ran to their deaths? HOW were they forced to do that? Under no conditions EVER is anyone forced to send their children to die in a minefield, at least not before running to the minefields themselves.

Don't you see the hypocrisy of those people? Don't you see that the basij instructors stood well back while driving the innocent to their sacrifice? And this behaviour exactly is what the Iranian nation is built upon. They are even proud of it. Which is why this is not a western media spin. It's a well-documented fact. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basij, or google. To me, this makes Ahmadinejad a hundred times worse than G.W.B. - and that's saying a lot because Bush is already pretty for up on my list of people who I can't even respect for being human.

Think very carefully about what you reply to this.

The bit about Israel may have some validity. I believe Israel has done a lot of things to make life harder for the Palestinians. However, Israel was accepted as a state by the UN, and from that point on, it was a factual entity. From that point on people attacking Israel became the aggressors, and Israel began defending. The Palestinians COULD have been the people to profit the most from the Israeli state, because Israel created so much infrastructure that simply wasn't there before. But they chose to fight against Israel, and the results we can see now. In fact, the Palestinians were the greatest victims of this conflict, because everyone used them, and the Israelis made them suffer the most because they were the immediate neighbours. The Palestinians were instrumentalised by the surrounding arabic nations as the forefront of their fight against Israel - which was at no point in time ever religiously motivated. Religion was just a convenient way to radicalise an entire populace.

[Buzkashi]

From what I gather the Basij whatever the fuck you call it was all voluntary. Theres a difference between the east and the west when it comes to war. In the west when your army gets beaten and beaten constantly you pull out, withdraw, surrender..etc. In the east once the army is defeated the people take it upon themselves to defend there homes. Thats why you see Israeli's killing children all the time. And it is ALL the time. Its because the children are as much fighters as the rest. They will throw rock or shoot guns if they had them.

Also, that followed that wiki link back to its original sources. The basij brigade bit was cited from Matthias Küntzel. The jewish political scientist, who went to school in the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Of course all of what he says is gonna be biased. Shit he probably despises Amadenijad for wanting the removal of the zionist's from the Holy Land. You continue to make me laugh.

[guywildman]

first of, discloser I was born to a Jewish family in the state of Israel, I am an atheist and a soldier in the i.d.f (Israel's defense force) and I find almost all the misconceptions of Buzkashi to be disturbing but unfortunately familiar. I hope you don't mind back tracking but I have some stuff to say so bare with me and if any one has any questions or problems with Israel I will gladly answer any question so you will at least get out side of things and not have your head filled with half truths and anti Israeli propaganda.

There is no such thing as Fundamentalist/Extremist islam. Its about as real as the boogey man. In islam you're either a non believer, a hypocrite, or a muslim. Thats about as gray as it gets.

Seriously? Every single Muslim is the same? thank you for clearing that up, so this means every single one of you believes blowing himself up will net him virgins, that women must wear clothes that cover everything but the eye's, have they're clitoris removed, be stoned for sex out of wedlock etc etc...
I'm not saying mind you I'm *asking*, because if it is your opinion you're wrong. There are lots of factions to the Islamic religion and if by hypocrite you meant any Muslim whose opinion varies from you then you have a lot of growing up to do.

Also I cant believe I'm being told "lighten Up". I'm about as light as it gets sister. But everyone has buttons that if pushed cause them to go off.

ye but most just get pissed and try to talk about it or channel they're anger in a constructive manner, Muslims have used violence in order to remove a carton that called them violent, this is not funny it's the Muslim mentality. if you offend they're religion they will hit you, if two Muslim criminals are chased by the cops, run and hide in a circuit box and then die of electrocution (wow, who would have thought that could happen) then they go out into the streets blowing up cars and destroying other peoples property. But heck that happened in France so I guess the country came out rather cheaply, two more days and they probably would have surrendered.

Your mixing politics and religion again. The Traditional Jewish faith opposes a state of Israel. Thats where my Avatar comes from.

On a strictly political basis Israel shouldn't exist the same way Nazi Germany shouldnt. Yes I did just compare the too. If people werent so easy to throw the anti-semite card around and the Jewish Lobby wasnt so strong maybe you would see it like that too.

Even in America there are decency laws. You cant just send pornographic magazines out to anyone and everyone in America. You'd get in trouble. You cant say ANYthing you want on television, you'll get fined. Like I said you can talk freedom all you want, but what the fuck is it worth if people cant be courteous to one another and have some goddamn decency.

This Jew it a member of a sect of the Jewish fate called "netoley karta" (in Hebrew) simply put there is a passage in the bible that says that the state of Israel will only be founded after the coming of the messiah, the messiah has not come there for no state of Israel should exist. This are extremist Jews (yes we have extremists to) whose interpretation of the passage is very very literal, they exist they have they're opinion and that opinion supports yours. Doesn't mean they're right and ye how about some goddamn decency? let me explain something to you decency is a two way street you cant go of cursing someone and then expect him to smile and politely tern the other cheek (well... maybe you can if you're talking to Jesus but what are the odds of that?). you go of comparing my country to Nazi Germany (not even explaining how the two relate) but expect every one to be decent to you and care about your fillings to make matters worse you immediately mention the powerful Jewish lobby so em... what happened to the separation of Israel and the Jewish religion. I mean look at what you wrote, you want people to stop censoring what they're saying about Jews, feel free to call me my family my friends and my country man Nazis but no pictures of Mohamed because it is insulting to the followers of Islam? Are you kidding me? you don't want decency or courtesy, you want hypocrisy, you want it to be fine to call the worst thing you can imagine to any one that is currently on Islam's bad side but not a word against any Muslims, it's hypocrisy at it's worst. If you really want decency, start being decent.
Oh and as for the thing about not being able to show anything on t.v. someone has not been watching south park lately, I loved the more crap episode.

For the record, the state of Israel could have just as easily been made in southern Germany instead of carving it out of pre-existing Palestine.

Two things about that statement are wrong:

1) the idea that post war Germany would have moved a single citizen out of they're homes in order to house Jews, or that Jews would happily go there. I'm not saying it's not possible but it sure as heck would not have been easy.

2) (and this is going to upset some people) the notion that there was in affect, a pre existing Palestine, now I beg you all to bear with me and read this with an open mind if you find a flaw in this argument I will read it with the same respect.
the state of Israel and the Palestinian state were in affect born in the exact same second before the u.n proclamation in 1947 the country was ruled by the British, prior to that is was the outman empire it goes on and on and on with Rome Mongolia and just about every one ruling this country in one point or another. Heck Israel has been passed around more then a past out girl in a frat party. Never have the Palestinians bean in charge of the country. *ever*. The current Palestinians are the decedents of the the occupation force of the outmen empire and were not a nation or a people until 1947. That doesn't mean they don't have a right to be here. They do/ a country is not a fucking game of who was there first and it's not the reason I and my family have a right to live right were we are. the aliot (masses of Jews coming to Israel in order to by and live on land) started about 50 years prior to the holocaust and consisted of Jews who legally acquired a visa and bought land from Arab land owners, the settlements were small and the land was in shity disease ridden parts of the country but the Jews wanted to live in Israel, they did so legally, so I don't see what the problem is. After ww2 the British didn't want Israel any more. But there is a problem they have to solve there are now 2 populations in Israel, Jewish and Arabic and they don’t get along. the British not knowing how to settle who gets what decided to let the u.n handle this and in a fair vote they split the country in two, a Jewish part and an Arabic part (the Arabic part by the way was much better) the Jews called they're country Israel and the Arabs Palestine the moniker the British used and so the Palestinians were born.

So don't come to me like the Muslims are the aggresive ones. In fact, all actions against the west any Muslim reistance group or persons make is most of the time in response to some persecution put on them by an outside force.

The Israeli independence war in 1947, the war of Yom Kippur, the 9/11 attack, the London bombing, the school slaughter in Chechnya all unprovoked attacks and Dude here is how you can tell the difference between a resistance group and a terrorist cell: a resistance group try's to avoid civilian targets and fights against a specific enemy usually the government of it's county or an occupation force, a terrorist group targets civilians and fights against ideals thoughts and rights.

. Israel is the only country in the world that openly as Nuclear weapons without having to sign the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty. They were given this technology by the U.S. Israel has recieved more UN sanctions than any other country I'm aware of.

1) the u.s
2) we have no nuclear weapons. Officially. We have a nuclear powered textile factory, what? We have a lot of people to cloth!
3)if we were given the technology (we *so* weren't. We just like to dress in layers) it was from France.
4) I have no idea, but if we were it might have something to do with the u.n being a bunch of pussies mega pussies.
5) seriously, weave got 0 nuclear weapons. We don't need them anymore, the powerful Jewish lobby totally gave us an ion cannon. Ion cannon for the win!

Not only do they destroy palestinian homes for these settlements but the settlements are stratigically placed so that villages are seperated, this makes it nearly impposible for people to travel or communicate with other villages.

No need for that amount of ingenuity, we put rode blocks in the middle of fucking no were just to make moving from point a to b more difficult and I am dead serious. we do this for a reason so the any movement of bomb makers, bomb components and other weapons be at the very least slowed, it's a fucking cruel tactic, it's also as affective as shit. And ye it makes moving the sick harder as well as pregnant woman. but there's a reason we don't let them just go throw, because they might carry bombs now let this sink in for just a minute, they let pregnant woman and the sick carry bombs hoping we will not search them and let them go throw quickly, in return to this act of compassion we get a suicide bombing so how can we be accused of being over thorough? a single case does come to my mind, a Palestinian child (age 9) was being teased by his friends because they believed him to be ugly, a hamas representative walk up to this boy and used he's depression as a way to turn him into a martyr, so he walked to an Israeli road block with a bomb strapped to he's chest and as he approached he was asked to lift he's shirt, he began crying and shoed the bomb to the soldiers begging them to help him, the soldiers diffused the bomb. Later on he was asked why he decided to become a martyr, he said it's because he was ugly and unpopular and he's only way to be happy was to kill himself so he may be with the virgins. When asked what a virgin is the boy answered: I don't know.

FUCK THAT SHIT.

don't fuck that shit.

And if they don't leave all is well because they will eventually die of starvation, exposure, or what is usually the case...israeli bullets and missles.

From the first intifada 7000, Palestinians have died from Israeli bullets, more died in car accidents, the reverse is also true, more Israelis have died in car accident the suicide bombings. As for the refugees, they ran, not walked, not trotted, ran, almost non were deported they left of they own volition/

All of this is done by Israel to ethnically cleanse the indigenous people of the land in the same way America did to the Native Indians

We have never, ever, propagated a genocide of that proportion nor have we tried to. All accusations of such mass killings have been (after an inspection by the u.n) disproved.

Thats why you see Israeli's killing children all the time. And it is ALL the time. Its because the children are as much fighters as the rest. They will throw rock or shoot guns if they had them.

Also, that followed that wiki link back to its original sources. The basij brigade bit was cited from Matthias Küntzel. The jewish political scientist, who went to school in the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Of course all of what he says is gonna be biased. Shit he probably despises Amadenijad for wanting the removal of the zionist's from the Holy Land. You continue to make me laugh.

Three things:
1) and you take pride in this?
2) you cant go around calling us morally deprived child killers when we kill a 16 year old boy that shot's at out troops and then say it's fine Iran used children as mine detectors, it's the hypocrisy thing again.
3)it is not all the time. It's about 150 a year or less (crude estimate, not gonna swear by the number), it's not good, I wish it was 0. But if it's shooting at you, you shot back.
4) ye... You keep supporting a spreader of intolerance, bigotry, fanaticism, denial of the holocaust and other bad shit.

[Brainpiercing]

Ya, it's sad you're the only person who would speak up, but he'll never accept your opinon, anyway. I got the feeling I was talking to a wall already, and it's just not my thing.

Buz, you're really getting deep down with this one. There are any number of reasons why you should feel sympathy with the palestinian people, unfortunately you're choosing all the wrong ones, and the wrong ways of expressing it. And because of that cold blooded murderers get your appreciation, when they should be met with contempt.

[Buzkashi]

This is all I'm going to say to you, you little zionist pussy. How many of your ELECTED leaders in the last 2 decades has the UN tried to put warcrimes on. I guess the Israeli people really know who they want and what they want them to accomplish.

Also you fucking moron. Of course no state of palestine existed. It was called the Ottomon Empire stupid fucker. Holy shit. The only reason you were able to get your greasy hands on the land was because the British and the French tossed it to you after they destoryed the Muslim Nation.

[Brainpiercing]

So why don't you just go to palestine and get killed? Buy a one way ticket, it's not that expensive.

Muslim nation, my ass....

[MsNomer]

This is all I'm going to say to you, you little zionist pussy. How many of your ELECTED leaders in the last 2 decades has the UN tried to put warcrimes on. I guess the Israeli people really know who they want and what they want them to accomplish.

Also you fucking moron. Of course no state of palestine existed. It was called the Ottomon Empire stupid fucker. Holy shit. The only reason you were able to get your greasy hands on the land was because the British and the French tossed it to you after they destoryed the Muslim Nation.

I could take you a lot more seriously if you were not resorting to cursing and calling people names... it seems like hate rather than intellectual discourse meant to persuade.

[Buzkashi]

Calling people names? people? That guy is no person. He is no human. He is the Nazi Stormtrooper, he is Stalin, he's worse than all the so called terrorists in the world combined.

In the words of Bob Dylan, "I hope that you die and your death will come soon".

[guywildman]

ye well your mom's a star wars storm trooper.
burn!!!

Well I wanted to leave it at that since you are obviously not someone how can be reasoned with (what a surprise) but I just had to ad this. calling other people Nazis and at the same time saying *any* part of humanity is in fact not human is beyond hypocrisy, it's stupid hypocrisy, stupocrisy if you will.

[Eldo]

Calling people names? people? That guy is no person. He is no human. He is the Nazi Stormtrooper, he is Stalin, he's worse than all the so called terrorists in the world combined.

In the words of Bob Dylan, "I hope that you die and your death will come soon".

After reading this, I felt like I had to say something. I have been unwilling to participate in this thread, because of my lack of knowledge towards this matter and I don't know all the facts. Which is why I've steered clear of all this discussion. Buzkashi is certainly the most vocal Muslim I've met; my Muslim friends are rather reserved about this sort of politics and religion for some reason. Additionally, there is a rather small Jewish community than compared to America (suffice to say, I have yet to meet a Jew that isn't from television or the radio) so I am less informed regarding this matters, or have been brought up to my interests culturally.

While I have been sympathetic towards you, Buzkashi - not because you're right, but because everyone has been against you on your posts so far - I felt like I had to say something after you further insulted guywildman for stating his opinion. Just take a step back man, nobody's here to argue who's right or wrong. This is just a forum for discussion, there is no need for any attacks or anything of that nature; just say your opinion and move on. Obviously there is no right or wrong in this controversial issue. Both sides, Jewish or Muslim, are obviously going to stick with their own guns, as with you and guywildman. You each have your own biases, and you're entitled to that. I can understand your unwillingness to trust in the American media, after all it's the Jews who control them and all (damn them all and their agenda and conspiracies), but you're not exactly well-informed when you're looking at the Muslim newsletter, or any Muslim newspapers which have a one-sided view to it. The media is supposed to report, it is up to you to deconstruct the article and decipher the facts.

I'll just talk about one of the things that disturbed me about your posts, obviously I don't have time to read it all, so I'll pick the major points. Your view on 'no such thing as Extremist Islam' disturbs me though. I think every religion is willing to admit that there is extremist groups out there that slander their God(s) with their actions. The KKK, for example, is an extremist group of Christianity. Similarly Bin Laden, for example, is an extremist. Your unwillingness to accept that disturbs me a bit, as it would seem that your stance on those terrorists is not to condemn them, which I find it hard for anyone to believe. Which means that you don't condemn people responsible for the car bombings that are responsible for the deaths of many civilians, or 9/11, which were done in the name of Allah and the holy war against the West. While you could argue 'the West screwed us first', I have nothing but sympathy, but however, it doesn't make them right for their actions. The innocent civilians the terrorists knowingly killed are not collateral in 'the holy war', they are actual people who are uninvolved in this and was dragged in just by being at the wrong place and at the wrong time. However, I do believe that the tag terrorist is used too regularly nowadays, but your refusal to accept that extremists exist in your religion is disturbing. Every religion shouldn't claim to be perfect, and the Muslims shouldn't claims so either.

However, I am willing to believe or entertain the notion that you may not consider people like Osama Bin Laden to be 'real Muslims', hence the Muslim religion is purged from extremism and all the flaws associated with it.

Obviously you're going to stick with your own stance and position, so the posters know they can't persuade you.

calling other people Nazis and at the same time saying *any* part of humanity is in fact not human is beyond hypocrisy, it's stupid hypocrisy, stupocrisy if you will.

I'm a bit amused how he called a Jew a 'Nazi', considering that you lot were on the receiving end.

[dialdfordesi]

I like how everyone is talking about Islam, but everyone is talking about the Muslim minority, the Middle Eastern Muslims. The fact that the majority of Middle Eastern Muslims express outrage against the Western world due to being screwed over by imperialism. Imperialism only ended in the fifties, so this sentiment is still pretty current, and every time a western nation gets involved with the Middle East, these sentiments are only renewed.

On Buzkashi's side, I will say that Muslims do get misrepresented by the media. I really don't think that the Indonesian Muslims (88 percent of Indonesia's population is Muslim, making it the country with the largest Muslim population) sport a unibrow or turban, and most of the migrants in the US never tried to convert me or act this supposed "aggressive" manner. On the other hand, Buzkashi, the comic was obviously not meant to insult Muslims, but was meant to provide some humor in just the same way that Family Guy uses Jesus to provide humor, so of course it's going to use some Muslim stereotypes, but I see the stereotypes being used in a light humored manner instead of to bash Islam.

Bottom line, the Middle East has just twenty percent of all Muslim people, so it is not very representative of Muslims.
I hope this helps to defuse the situation here.

[Buzkashi]

I dont think everyone understood me fully when I said there is no such thing as fundamentalist Islam. To say that there is moderate or liberal or fundamentalist Islam is wrong. Mainly because the the most central aspect of the faith is ones submission to God. Everything else you do is based on your submission. There are some who act like they have submitted there will but who truly arent, because they dont practice or whatever. Those are called the hypocrites, the same in Christianity I believe. There are those who have truly have submitted themselves, the believers. And those who have not submitted themselves at all, non believers. When a person like Osama Bin Laden come through its not that hes an extremist or a fundamentalist. He practices the same relgion as me. All this sums down to is a constant mixture of politics and religion by everyone. Osama is driven by a goal to create some kind of Pan-Islamic state. And what does he need to accomplish this? Money. You see its not truley Religion that is the cause of all evil. Its money. Money makes the man who follows a faith deter and kill innocents. Money makes the Politician crooked. Money influences the media to express certain bias's.

On the topic of Israel. I dont hate all Israeli's. Just like you cant hate all the Germans because of what the Nazi's did. I actually have a Jewish friend who has lived in Israel for a number of years. The main problem is that a very large number of the people are ignorant to whats going on. I've been actually going through a stage of discussions with my friend, bringing to light the true aspects of the conflict. To say that muslims are at no fault at all is wrong. And I hope I didn't make it seem thats what I believe. But if there is to be 2 evils. Israel is most certainly the greater of the 2.

I apologize to those who were offended by things I said, but I cant say that they meant nothing. I will say that I acted to rashly when dealing with the IDF soldier ( if he really was one). To be honest, it was the first time I had even dealt with an actual Israeli soldier and the only thing that went through me was extreme anger amongst other things. But as it is, Eldo is right. This isn't real life, this is a forum for discussion and I should have taken a break and gathered my thoughts before posting.

[Brainpiercing]

Er.... Bin Laden HAD tons of money, and his family has tons of money. How does he make money by making other people kill thousands of innocents? That's not a business I know of, unless people who are like minded then somehow give him lots of money.
But who are those people that give Osama money for killing innocents? Are they muslims? They are certainly criminals, though, there's no doubt about that.

[guywildman]

you cant put the entirety of Islam in one definition, there are many different sub sections to Islam and even if we agree to you're definition that you can ever be religious pretend you are or not believe in the section of Islam you were raised on, the fact is that each different section of Islam has it's own rules beliefs and sees things differently, some are inherently more extreme then others. The shia are more radical then the sunni and both are more radical then the bahai which are pacifists.

I really think you have a false image of Israel in you're head are you aware that Muslim Arabs of both factions who live in the state of Israel (outside the Gaza strip and western bank) are citizens with voting rights they have there own party there are successful Arab business man, doctors, lawyers and scalars and live a much better life then the Palestinian counter parts? (they are Israeli Arabs, not Palestinians) there are the Druze how join the army and many are part of the highest ranks and the army and the bahai that have full religious rights and have parts of Haifa and acker as they're religious ground. I also wish to mention the Arab christens is southern Lebanon that were murdered in they're country because of religion and have been given homes health benefits and full citizenship when they fled here after the Israelis pulled out of Lebanon (the first time).
Israel dose not persecute Muslims, we hunt terrorists.

you argument that Osama is in terrorism for money is flaud, he lost money supporting terrorism, infect realty is the exact opposite of your claim, he did not pursue money using terrorism as he's means, he pursued power other others and the spread of his personal beliefs threw that power and his means was money that he had plenty of.

I really don't see how what you say can be true, you having a Jewish ex-Israeli friend, do to the treatment I have been given after telling you and everyone else who I am, you're rage and racial slurs do not paint a picture of a man that can be tolerant to any one with any opinion different then yours. I may be misjudging you're character but that is what you project so I can only guess you say this in order to look less like an intolerant asshole.

p.s

Brainpiercing regarding your question, Iran and Saudi Arabia

[Buzkashi]

If anyone has misconceptions its you and brainpiercing.

First to respond to Brainpiercings post. Of course he HAS a very large amount of money. But to have enough to buy protection and influence from all the different countries in Arabia and Africa is another story.

To answer guy:

You're the one who's flawed. It can easily be seen by your very first paragraph.

you cant put the entirety of Islam in one definition, there are many different sub sections to Islam and even if we agree to you're definition that you can ever be religious pretend you are or not believe in the section of Islam you were raised on, the fact is that each different section of Islam has it's own rules beliefs and sees things differently, some are inherently more extreme then others. The shia are more radical then the sunni and both are more radical then the bahai which are pacifists.


Israel dose not persecute Muslims

Islam is divided into 2 major subsections. Sunni, and Shia't. The majority of whom are Sunni's. Most of the differences in belief are all Political. When it comes down to the interpretation of the Quran and the Prophets teachings they are for all intents and purposes the same.

Now with that out of the way. You called a third sect o Islam Bahai. They are not Muslim. Bahai is a religion in which the followers show acceptance and belief in all the Abrahamic religions together. This completely goes against the faith of Islam and as a result makes them non-muslim. No matter how much they try to say they are muslim. I've discussed this with numerous Bahai, all of which were Persian(not sure if most bahais are from Iran).

You're right. Israel does not persecute Muslims. They persecute anyone and everything that opposes them. Whether it was Vanunu who revealed Israel's secret nuclear arsenal in the 80's, or the many Christain Lebanese it demolished. I cant believe you even have the word Lebanon in your mouth. Israel ruined the state of Lebanon. And then they have the head to call Hesbollah a terrorist organisation. If that is true than Lebanon as a whole country is a terrorist faction. Because if you ask most anyone in Lebanon who there national Army is they will tell you, Hisbollah.

Israel is the equivalent of a gang. One of the sterotypical american gangs that if you cross there set, where there colors, or give them a wrong look they will kill you. With Israel its definatley not an "eye for an eye". Its more of like "killing all your first born and putting your nation crisis for an eye"

And Brainpiercing. I know I apologized to those I offended before. I want you to know that excluded you. You can host all the berserk you want, shit I may even dl it one of these days, but you can suck a fat dick.