Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

[psi29a]

Here is a better explanation:

[Buzkashi]

Psi that almost borders on propaganda.

And I like how the obviously muslim one has a unibrow when jesus was born in Bethlehem. Aka. Palestine. Middle East.

Just my 2 cents.

[psi29a]

Psi that almost borders on propaganda.

And I like how the obviously muslim one has a unibrow when jesus was born in Bethlehem. Aka. Palestine. Middle East.

Just my 2 cents.

Then shoot me, burn me, or quarter me. Doesn't matter what I do, I'll probably offend each and every one of you one day. Laugh more.

also, did the content of the cartoon ever sink in past the stereotyping?

[MsNomer]

Islam, Judaism and Christianity all trace their roots to Jerusalem, so what exactly was the point of pointing out the unibrow? It could easily go either way.

[Buzkashi]

No need to get all jumpy on me. I was just pointing out that the cartoon was just plain crude and the message sounded like propaganda.

[psi29a]

No need to get all jumpy on me. I was just pointing out that the cartoon was just plain crude and the message sounded like propaganda.

http://www.jesusandmo.net <-- cartoon series, feel free to enjoy You can thank killfile for showing me this.

[Buzkashi]

I remember not too long ago a certain female member of this forum had some rather rude sexual comments made towards her.

You immediately told him to apologize or something of the sort. What was said was extremely offensive.

Something I find extremely offensive is that comic your so proud of. It basically pisses on half the worlds population and not only that but they are depicting the Prophet Mohammed(pbuh). Jeesus and Mo. They got to be shitting me thinking that changing the name from Mohammed to Mo does any thing.

The creator is obviously a fucking idiot.

At this point everyone in there right minds knows that depicting the prophet is something strictly forbidden and causes a lot of hostilities. You guys may preach on about freedom of this and freedom of that. Thats all good and well. But what the fucking happened to a little human decency. A little common sense. You don't drive into Harlem or the Bronx and get on a megaphone and start yelling out NIGGER!! or in this case NIG! NIG!.

P.S. I think this comic is bettar.

[psi29a]

In which case I will side with free-speech.

I'm sorry, but there is a difference between hate-speech and a taboo.

When the whole thing went down with the Danish cartoonist being harassed and fearing for their LIVES.

TWELVE Danish cartoonists whose pictures sparked such outcry have gone into hiding under round-the-clock protection, fearing for their lives.

...

A spokesman for the cartoonists said: “They are in hiding around Denmark. Some of them are really, really scared. They don’t want to see the pictures reprinted all over the world. We couldn’t stop it. We tried, but we couldn’t.”

You have got to be kidding me? I sided with the Danish cartoonist because the right to descent, challenge and make light of a situation should be the corner stone of civilization that practices egalaterian values. The cartoons in questions were not even hate related, it challenged a taboo.

How about SNL's spoof on the justice league that had all the world's religions? Was anyone outraged then?

That being said, I'm also siding with the artist in New York who made an entire effigy of Christ on the cross made of shit. What about that?

I think there is a real line in the sand when it comes to free-speech about what is and is not hate-speech.

Yelling nigger towards or sexually harassing a forum member doesn't even compare.

If we relent and become PC, then the Fundamentalist Christians, Jews, and Muslims have already won which is backwards step for humanity.

I'm sorry if you do not agree with my sentiment, that is OK too. I'm sorry that we have hijacked this thread, if you want I can split it and discuss else where.

I apologize to Buz, sorry man. If it makes you feel any better, the intent of the cartoon was to show how Christianity and Islam deal with the topic of Abortion. Hopefully it was equally offensive to both religions.

[MsNomer]

I am sorry to see this thread, about ABORTION, get side tracked into a discussion of religious taboos. As it happens I have been working on a paper all day dealing with a similar topic. Swear words. As I have discovered (though I already knew) in my researches, many things that were once held as taboo, sometimes are not later. Conversely, somethings that were not taboo in the recent or distant past, are now.

When I was a child, it was strictly forbidden to let the flag touch the ground, let alone to burn one. Of ANY nation. Now, not only is it acceptable, but practiced often by certain fundamentalist sects throughout the world and here in the US. And those burnings are not only hateful but meant to inspire fear. It used to be accepted practice to offer respect and condolences at funerals. Now, these occasions are the site of protests and hate. We don't mind the protest part so much as we do the hate.

In the case of the recent cartoon appearing here of two of the three major religion's revered leaders discussing the differences of their faith regarding abortion, no hate was intended, no malice, no protest.

In my time in these forums, I have come to understand that this is a place for discussion, for an exchange of ideas, for enlightenment. If people can no longer express themselves openly and honestly, the discussion ends.

I was not offended by anything that was said or posted here and I am sorry if anyone else was. Your offense reminds me that perhaps you do not approach this with an open mind, but rather with one containing a clear and cut and dry agenda. One that divides you from "the Other" and makes you separate from the "us" and the "we". I wonder what other ideas you shut yourself off from and what ideas you refuse to share with us, concerned that you might offend or be misunderstood.

Perhaps you would have been happier with a Doonesbury type depiction of the prophet, a set of empty pajamas and a speech bubble? The symbolism then would be that of exclusivity and I am sure that would have offended you as well. Afterall, only Jeesus (the white man's man) would have had an identity.

From a sociological stand point, I understand the concern, from the point of view of someone posting online, I can't help remembering, "It's only the internet, lighten up."

[Buzkashi]

I understood the purpose of the cartoon. It just shocked me that someone like you who can express himself so eloquently with words would use something so obviously distasteful to argue a point.

Also its a much bigger thing than calling somone a "nigger" or a 'cunt". Its disrespecting 1.5 billion peoples way of life. Because its a part of the faith, its a part of the teachings. In islam every part is just as important as the next. Any religion can become corrupt if even the smallest portion is removed or changed. In the case of depiction of the prophet its all a matter of Shirk, or associating something with God or his prophets. It is strictly forbidden in the faith.

In the case of the moronic danish Cartoonist not only did he depict the prophet but he tried to imply that the prophet was evil and that Muslims were terrorists. Hes an instigator plain and simple. Thats what he wanted and he got what he deserved. I'm a muslim. That picture put more anger and hurt in my heart than any racial slur or name calling could ever put.

If we relent and become PC, then the Fundamentalist Christians, Jews, and Muslims have already won which is backwards step for humanity.

There is no such thing as Fundamentalist/Extremist islam. Its about as real as the boogey man. In islam you're either a non believer, a hypocrite, or a muslim. Thats about as gray as it gets. When you see resistant fighters and call them terrorists and call them Muslim Fundamentalists it doesnt mean much because its not the religion thats causing them to do anything, its polotics and the constant instigation and confrontation with the West and its Liberal Revolution that its trying to spread.

The islamic empires were extremely beneficial to the world. The reason Europe was taken out of its dark ages. Its medevil ages where they lived in dung huts. Was because of the advancements and knowledge the muslim Empires had and taught to the people.


Also I cant believe I'm being told "lighten Up". I'm about as light as it gets sister. But everyone has buttons that if pushed cause them to go off.
And this happened to be one of mine. I saw alot of people not being so cheery and loosy goosey during the debate on abortion. But you dont catch me going telling anyone to lighten up.

[War Machine]

I'm sure nobody here meant any harm, and I think I speak for all when I say that everyone here respects you and your beliefs. But I don't see why it irks you so much that someone who clearly doesn't believe in the muslim faith makes a cartoon (with crude drawings) about the prophet. It won't make you believe any less in your religion nor will it impede anyone else from joining it if they desire. We could censor ourselves so as to not disrespect anyone, but how are we going to debate or even talk about such topics if we're not allowed?

You say that the cartoon is distasteful because it disrespects a great number of people, yet you don't seem at all concerned that a lot more people are being disrespected with the drawing of Jesus in the cartoon. Also, nobody said that the islamic empires didn't contribute anything to humanity or anything of the like, but you mention that as if contradicting somebody.

I understand that you feel offended when someone wrongfully believes that all terrorists are muslims, but that's their problem. There was no attack here on your personal beliefs or person; there's no need to get mad.

[psi29a]

perhaps it is a matter of interpretation?

I split the thread to preserve it, apologies to all.

[MsNomer]

Just so we are clear here, why is it not ok to depict the prophet, but it IS ok to malign the existence of Israel?

[Gaiseric]

Thanks Psi, I enjoyed the jesus and mo comics.

Buz, i find it amusing that you call the danish cartoonists instigators when the imams that reprinted the illustrations in the middle east added three, rather offensive, images to the 12 original Danish cartoons. http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_ar ... _cartoons/

Also, the unibrow probably keeps more dirt out of the eyes. I'd call it evolution.

[Brainpiercing]

It may be forbidden to Muslims to depict their prophet. It's not to anyone who is not a muslim. Any non-muslim can make sketches of anyone, and if that person is a subject of public interest, even quite derogatory depictions are covered by the freedom of press and speech. If muslims don't like that, they always have one freedom: DON'T LOOK AT THE PICTURES!

You seriously can't deny that muslims are ridiculing themselves by their outcries of anger. Displaying Mohammed as a suicide bomber should hold a mirror up to their faces, but instead of understanding anything at all, they immediately want to go and blow themselves up. Gimme a break. Can't you see the irony in that?

[psi29a]

ease up on the whole us vs. them mentality.

There are fundie Christians (Westborrow for example), and fundi jewish (crazy ones that beat women who sit on same bus), then you can believe that there are fundies of every rank and file in other religions too.

There are even militant atheists (which are still believers, just believing there is not god).

There are some pretty hypocritical things to go around, the world's problems aren't exclusive to Islam.

[Buzkashi]

Just so we are clear here, why is it not ok to depict the prophet, but it IS ok to malign the existence of Israel?

Your mixing politics and religion again. The Traditional Jewish faith opposes a state of Israel. Thats where my Avatar comes from.

On a strictly political basis Israel shouldn't exist the same way Nazi Germany shouldnt. Yes I did just compare the too. If people werent so easy to throw the anti-semite card around and the Jewish Lobby wasnt so strong maybe you would see it like that too.


Gaiseric: Hahaha. Yea that website seemed really reliable.

It may be forbidden to Muslims to depict their prophet. It's not to anyone who is not a muslim. Any non-muslim can make sketches of anyone, and if that person is a subject of public interest, even quite derogatory depictions are covered by the freedom of press and speech. If muslims don't like that, they always have one freedom: DON'T LOOK AT THE PICTURES!

Even in America there are decency laws. You cant just send pornographic magazines out to anyone and everyone in America. You'd get in trouble. You cant say ANYthing you want on television, you'll get fined. Like I said you can talk freedom all you want, but what the fuck is it worth if people cant be courteous to one another and have some goddamn decency.

[MsNomer]

Just so we are clear here, why is it not ok to depict the prophet, but it IS ok to malign the existence of Israel?

Your mixing politics and religion again. The Traditional Jewish faith opposes a state of Israel. Thats where my Avatar comes from.

On a strictly political basis Israel shouldn't exist the same way Nazi Germany shouldnt. Yes I did just compare the too. If people werent so easy to throw the anti-semite card around and the Jewish Lobby wasnt so strong maybe you would see it like that too.

It wasn't EASY for me to ask that question as I thought it might offend you. See, I actually find the avatar offensive, but wasn't going to step on your toes about it or make a big deal about it, because I am from the US and I respect YOUR right to say and represent what you want. And I am not mixing politics and religion (again), your avatar is.

I actually asked someone if they thought the question was appropriate given the theme.

[Buzkashi]

Questioning the legitimacy of the Israeli state is completely different from any kind of racial slur, or disrespect on ones life style. One deals with ones life and the way they lead it(religion), the other on something the person has no control over(race), and finally the other has to do with continuously breaking international law and ethnic cleansing(Israel)

[Gaiseric]

Is Wikipedia reliable enough for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-P ... nal_images

[Buzkashi]

Why don't you quote the part that actually talks about it rather than expecting me to read long article.

[Gaiseric]

Sorry, I didn't think you would get so upset about something that you never bothered to read up on.

"Two imams who had been granted sanctuary in Denmark, dissatisfied with the reaction of the Danish Government and Jyllands-Posten, created a forty-three-page document entitled "Dossier about championing the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.""

"Appended to the dossier were multiple clippings from Jyllands-Posten, multiple clippings from Weekendavisen, some clippings from Arabic-language papers and three additional images which also had no connection with Denmark."

"The imams claimed that the three additional images were sent anonymously by mail to Muslims who were participating in an online debate on Jyllands-Posten,[30] and were apparently included to illustrate the perceived atmosphere of Islamophobia in which they lived, and to trigger anti-Western hatred.[31] On February 1 BBC World incorrectly reported that one of them had been published in Jyllands-Posten.[32] This image was later found to be a wire-service photo of a contestant at a French pig-squealing contest.[33][34] One of the other two additional images (a photo) portrayed a Muslim being mounted by a dog while praying, and the other (a cartoon) portrayed Muhammad as a demonic paedophile. Equipped with the dossier, the two imams circulated it throughout the Muslim world, presenting their case to many influential religious and political leaders, asking for support."

[Buzkashi]

I'm failing to get your point. The Imams compiled works to show Western hate for Islam, Denmark especially, and because 3 of the pictures added in the 43 pg book werent from Denmark you say what. That the Imams were instigating it?

[Eldo]

I guess you could argue that the imams are attempting to instigate anti-Western sentiments by adding the additional images to fuel the flames.

Funnily enough, of all the religions I mock, Muslim is probably the only one I haven't really touched on. That may be because my 6 feet 4 inches friend would do the smackdown on me and send me to a world of pain.

Everyone has their sacred cows, and as such would be mocked in one form or another as nothing is really sacred. While I could understand Buzkashi's anger, you have to understand that you could not stop this from happening. While a depiction of Mohammad is offensive to you, you can't stop it, so might as well ignore it. (You probably are already ignoring it, but using this thread to vent out your frustration.) You just need to take a step back, accept that this could not and never be changed and just chill and ignore. However, this is a forum to discuss these issues, so it would be a pretty lame forum if nothing is said.

However, with the terrorist depiction, my anger towards that was purely because at a time of such sensitivities, negatively stereotyping an entire religion or appearance is not the best way to work. We don't need further hate-spreading to acknowledge the prejudice. Perhaps we could laugh at this when this whole war on terror crap is over, but not at this time. It's like mocking 9/11 when it first happened, but nowadays 9/11 related jokes are made afterwards at a more suitable time. You could mock Soviet Russia, and a Russian probably won't care, you could mock Nazi Germany, and a German probably won't care either. It's happened in the past, and it's gone. The topic of terrorism is happening right now, and the terrorists that pop up in many people's minds are individuals of middle-eastern descent, and not a white guy with jeans with their home-made car bombs.

I'm interested in issues like this because I'm an atheist who's interested in religion and culture (mainly because I can point at the hypocrisies and well...the stories albeit fiction are quite entertaining). Just before I go, could I ask if Muslim is also 'an eye for an eye' type of teachings as well like Judaism? Because I get multiple-fold of what I did in terms of pain if I mock my Muslim friend. I poke him with a stick, he stabs me back with a knife. Not trying to instigate anything, but just genuinely interested. I haven't been able to get my hands on an English Koran, but in all honesty, never really bothered to find one because I consider Muslim to be quite boring in terms of stories.

Also, any Christians that's pissed off with the below image?



It's a picture of Jesus washing the feet of world leaders, but he's washing the feet of Osama Bin Laden at that time.

[Brainpiercing]

Buz, decency is one thing. Calling for the death of someone who ridicules another, or even a group of people, is entirely another thing. YES it would be nice if everyone were nice and decent. However, it's not the case on either side. For quite some time muslims have been given every kind of silk-gloved treatment, because it seems they are easily offended. However, does it stop them from trying to spread their views across the globe? Why is it that muslims demand a lot of respect from others, while they are not prepared to respect others? In Denmark those caricatures are covered by the law. That makes publishing them a danish issue. Why not respect the state of Denmark and the freedom of the press? Instead, high muslim leaders call for the death of the artists. They also called for the deaths of a number of other people. Do you call that decency?

And one more thing: Muslims are far away from standing with their backs to the wall. In spite of the islamophobia you may be seeing in different places, muslims live a good life basically everywhere in the western world, and are free to practice their religion in any western democracy. EVEN in Israel there are many muslims who are not hindered from practicing their religion at all. However, there seems to be an increasingly large number of muslims who are not satisfied with the mere freedom of practicing their religion. They want to influence and control the entire populace, and IMHO, that makes islam a predominantly aggressive religion. It is, at present, far more aggressive than christianity. And it is this image that makes people draw critical sketches of muslim ideals. Before you go accusing those who criticise islam, ask yourself why they are doing it.