Can I tell you... freespeech, propaganda, or anti-religion?

[Brainpiercing]

I've found numerous times that the vast majority of radical muslims have absolutely no self-esteem whatsoever. Take away the little god in their head, their ego just goes poof. So to prevent that, they turn to violence. There is no strength in that. They are all little men, scared shitless even of their wives and mothers, scared of society and that it will not respect them, and scared of anyone who might put the tiny seed of doubt in their head. Usually of course, they are pretty much useless, too, they have nothing but their vast source of male pride, the Mo-Penis. But of course, all that pride is good for nothing. There is no achievement behind it, it's just false ego boosted to a violent maximum.

Buz, you stupid dickhead, I guess you're not beyond hope, because you listened to others a bit. Of course I want to insult you now, but I'm pretty level-headed about it. Look at what there is of you without that mad faith of yours, and see if you like it. Ah, but I forget, you probably won't do that, you'll just go about shouting insults, or maybe even beating people. You'd probably beat me up, too, if you found me. And that's exactly why you're a violent good for nothing shitface just like your brothers in faith.

Once you've thought things through and come to the right conclusions, I'll respect you again. Until then, I pity you.

Oh, and by the way, since this seems to be a flame thread now, how about moving it to the interstice?

[Buzkashi]

I'd beat your ass because your a rennaisance loving pussy, with a bad haircut. Not because I'm a muslim.

Lol @ calling me a dickhead, I feel very offended. Fucking grown man for you eh?

Come to the right conclusion? You mean your conclusion. haha you gotta be fucking pulling my leg.

Its obvious to most anyone who reads this thread that you already had a very strong hate for Islam. Did the kid who beat you up in grade school happen to be muslim or something?

When it comes down to Israel and Palestine forget religion, forget political party, forget the Muslim kid that probably beat your ass in grade school. Dont be blinded by all that so that you cant see right from wrong. Wrong is wrong and what Israel is doing is just that.

edit: Go back to just posting your DDL in the interstice.

[Brainpiercing]

Now that's frustrating, I couldn't pull your strings at all.

Naw, I was never beaten up by any muslim, and I don't know any muslim I personally hate. I don't like the religion of islam because it propagates violence far more than any other major religion at the moment. That's not to say others don't or didn't have their share of that, but really, the world changes, the religions have to change. If Islam can't become secular, there will be a big bang some time in the future and millions will die.

And once more about Israel: There are numerous things the Israeli defence forces are probably doing wrong at any moment. But there is a simple reason I cannot accept those people who oppose Israel: Their goals are ridiculous. Instead of trying to make peace and getting Israel to help them build up their infrastructure, which would come out as win-win for everyone, they instead propagate wiping Israel off the map. But that's just not going to happen. Without or without US money Israel isn't going to just vanish. What those people want is another genocide, and luckily, Israel has enough friends to prevent that. But in continuing the fight, all that is happening is that they are making things worse for everyone, because they just can't win in the end. However, if they were to stop fighting, they would lose their power base, because without a conflict, noone would listen to them. They go on fighting so they don't lose influence, the same as Israeli hardlines do nothing to stop the conflict, or they would lose meaning.

edit: And the stone age muslims have done it again. Pakistani taliban have begun blowing up buddhist statues, without being hindered by the authorities. It's this disrespect for others that makes me hate islam. Not all muslims, just islam itself and some muslims.

[Buzkashi]

I just saw your post, however class is about to start. So get ready for a shafting when I get back

[psi29a]

So we are blaming the faith and not the person?

Isn't that a bit like blaming the gun and not the person who pulled the trigger?

Or blaming the <bit of knowledge> and not the person who levered <bit of knowledge> in a harmful manner?

[Rolos]

wow.....looks like this originally interesting thread quickliy degenerated in a "who can throw more shit at the other face* thread.

I have read all the previous posts and there is something thats bothering me.......
Buzcashi, doesnt the Quran strictly prohibits any kind of representation of the human form? I am not very sure about that, but as far as i know thats what led the muslims empires artist s to create the mosaic.
As a faithful muslim that submits his will to the will of Allah ( I read somewhere that "islam" means "submision") and acts accordinly to what is written in the Quran, without ignoring any part of it (thus not being a hipocryte), shouldnt you stop reading Berserk?

Anyway, I think the Palestine-Israel-US-terrorism situation is merely political. Of course there is some religion mixed up, but thats part of all the cultural clashes were are seeing there. This is how things came to be as fucked up as they are now, according to me at least:

Its kinda stupid, I mean.....Isreal was born.....war.....Israel consolidates its position thanks to US economic support....some more war......the zone reaches a relative level of stabiliy (suicide bombings and the consequent punitive raids every once in a while).....the whole 9/11 thing......US citizens are pissed off, just when the thought they were safe they were attacked.....Bin Laden takes responsability (he recieved CIA training but later he developed a hatred towards US becuase of their continual supporting for Israel)....."War on Terror" begins......US invades Afganistan....everything seems (relatively speaking) fine now.....then the Irak shit goes off......US invades Irak with a bad excuse and starts an ocupation with no apparent end.....(now the theoethical part of this post starts)

Muslim nations originally saw all these english, US, french and other europeans countries stalking, waiting for a chance to get oil, but at least their methods were relatively peaceful. Israel had always been a thorn in the ass, but after 50 years they were kind of accostumed of their presence.
- 9/11.
Invasion of Afganistan. US troops moving all around the place, but at least they had a reason, it was understandable, they (muslim nations) would have done the same if they were attacked by some Holy Templars fundamentalistic christan group that had revealed later they were located in, I dont know, Honduras.

Then Irak came. US invaded a totally 9/11 unrelated muslim country with a shity excuse and an even shitier plan. Ocupation. The worst tactic you could possible choose in a foreign country with a totaly different culture and religion, that also happens to be surrounded by more foreign countries.
Muslim nations no longer see US as the big bully, the role US (its true, face it) normally adopts in international politics, now they see US as a hostile presence that wont even bother to make up a reason for invading.
And now, they cherry at the top of the Cake......Bush declares god is on his side.
Now its not just a Hostile presence driven but merely political and economical interests, now its also about religion. And not just any religion, but the religion thats has historicaly being your enemy.

If I was a mid-eastern muslim, I would be:

A) incredibly pissed, these damn western wont be satisfied with taking my petroleum and natural gas, they also want to take my faith!!!

B) scared!! I am getting the hell out of here!! Who says US wont invade my country any day based on some idiotic arguments?

C) both scared and pissed off. I wont do anything directly, but I am so damn jumpy that even a comic will make me feel attacked!!

Israel wont dissapear and US will do whatever it wants, as they have been doing since the end of the cold war, so the solution must came from the part of the mid-eastern muslims.Israel wont dissapear, but for the US there are a couple of solutions:

A) They have to stop being so confrontational, that way the world will see them as the opressed and the US citizenry will elect a more flexible government.

B) If that doesnt work, al least the reason they fight for must change, they wont get any sympathies if they keep yelling "Inch Allah".
"For freedom" would be as valid and, believe me, western people love freedom fighters, no matter how stupid or unreasonable they are *cough* Che Guevara *cough*

Pd: sorry about the grammar and ortographic mistakes, i will correct them as I find them....

[Shaka Zulu]

Dont want to get involved, but I assume they atleast teach tiny bit of world religions in schools no? Your first paraghraph is total crap Rolo (the least of your problem with that confusing post is the grammar...I wouldnt say shit about that because I assume its not your first language...and whatever,I suck more as you are about to see ). Too lazy to write an essay (but prolly will), but lets just say the reason Islam doesnt have idolworship and symbols like statues is quite natural if you know the background of it, it has gotten overzealous and misintepreted by the bewildering average ignorant human mind whos quitck to establish warped dogmas(they went from you shall not idolworship because it overshadows the message of it all, to all muslims should not see images of any human, including your own, and got worse and worse etc)....But basically it was quite relevant that early Islam had the common sense rule of forbidding idolworshipping.

Why? Because the inviroment the religion was created in, was quite ridicolous in the amount of the random pagan religions that existed (not your usual organized animistic pagan religion with long history...like example Japans shinto or Nigeria's Yoruba etc). It was all about every fucking idiot making up his own religion (frigging daily, there was 100s and 100s in one city alone, unique only to that city) and building a figure of clay and say its my God. Or worship a frigging random rock (I'm serious). Mostly also the corrupt merchants who ruled Mecka created new religions to serve their purpose of drawing big crowds to their markets ("hear ye hear ye, buy the new shiny holy pimp doll"), or simply to controll the people (yes, 5th AD were as sophisticated in their evileness and corruption as fucking Cheney ). Easy way to increase the population, their control and hence more power and money.

But in essence, I repeat.... it was all frigging about worshipping a frigging shiny random rock or amulette, and zero spirituality. Absolute zilch. Before you say I sound to judgemental to ancient religions, I mean these bizzare made on the spot local "religions" only, not real ancient and influential religion like Zoraestism or anything ( no abrahamaic religions without that big fossil fishy fishy). Have any of you seen the Hollywood movie from the 70s about Islam called the Message? (with the great late Anthony Quinn) Great flick, shows what I mean quite clearly. I'm ranting on, but basically is perfectly natural how it started that out in that the early muslims couldnt teach their religion to these crowds when the only notion of religion they knew was IDOLWORSHIP, atleast most pagans religions who worshipped idols atleast bothered giving the frigging thing a background story ( the fucker up there will fry your ass if you dont sacrifice this or that etc), its own little logic and purpose. These had nothing but worhipping rocks and clay figures ONLY. How can you get through to those kind of people? You tell them "forget about idols, period, its forbidden and they are useless, but listen to this message instead". Simplistic, but one big hurdle to stomp down hard on before you can say anything about your religion. Just forget any form idolworship, the message is what matters.

Then ofcourse it got overzealous in how you restrict and forbid any kind of idolworship or symbol etc, there is no clear rules or guidelines in it but many intepretations. No real experts in this, just open intepretation to how you live with it. Some turned pretty faschistic with it and said you cant even paint a frigging stroke of an image ( the same kinda sheep is vilifying the religion...I dont even mean the terrorists, but those who have a extremely warped excuse of version of the religion, and assume the rest of 1.5bn muslims should be like them or they are traitors). There is some ignorant old school muslims today who say its a sin to take a picture of you (a bit primitive pagan belief of an image stealing your soul etc), but voila you show them and shock the fuck out of them by showing Muslim sultans and religious holy men of history who has made frigging statues and portraits of themselves etc. The same kind of oversensitive frustrated and weak minded rioters who made a fuss over the Mohammed cartoons because they were manipulated by other extremists, and easily got baited by the pathetic excuse of populistic dannish journos (I live in sweden, Denmark DOES not lose a chance to get all xenophobic, its all but purely free speech). I can tell you one little thing about the reaction to those Cartoons, its common knowledge for you right that the cartoons was showed in the medias of muslim countries and even here in Sweden...MONTHS before this shit went down. NO ONE batted an eye, NO ONE. In Egypts media, they showed it, made a poll about it, the running majority answer? "MEEEEEEH" *yawn*. I'm not kidding, that media fabricated bullshit of riots and outrage is pathetic, typical crap to generalise and zoom in on the bad apples and say the whole garden of apples trees are rotten....


On the original topic, I dont want to get involved because its too frigging juveline and general of topic too boot (what are you really discussing? You are trying to simplify and address the worlds political hot topics in one frigging go, some focus please ), it has been over done to death. But just one thing.... FYI (frigging obvious), Israel-Palestina has zero to do with religion, a frigging retard knows that atleast, christian or atheist palestinians hate being oppressed just the same, and Zionists oppress the non-muslims and kills them just the same, despite some clear anti-semitism, it has zero to do with jewish relgion, but the actions of its state (no matter what, its all cool to live with and accept Israel, but its big ass shenanigans in how it was created, frigging hypocritical Imperialistic Europeans fucking over jews to death in millenias, decide to dump them in a region, however they had there....they had no issued with the inhabitants whatsoever).

And not to take sides (Buzkashi even if somewhat agree with him takes it too personally and gone slightly overboard in what you said to the izraeli, he is biased yes, but just as you are.... he has hardly posted like your typical zionist extremists, but been quite reasonable in parts...the term nazi is just embarrassing however valid you think it is), but some peeps here are just impossible to even attempt to discuss with (and I only mean one fucker mostly). I dont mean to sound like Femto, or add to the shitfest of insults, but Its really necessary...of what I have read of Brainpercing in this thread (and previously discussed the same shit months ago with him)...I'm sorryy but I cant say anything but that he is a fucking retarded moron (no frigging point attempting to discuss when he is stuck on the same frigging cliches). Maybe not a graceful way to end a post, but he frigging acts like one, what can I say? (read: rhetorical).


P.S Scusi for the rant. Except Brainpercing, you're still a fucking moron.

[Buzkashi]

If you take brainpiercings little rant in his last post and replace every usage of the word "islam, or muslim" with " Negro, or Nigger" you would sound almost exactly like a Klansman or a member of the Aryan Brotherhood.

Just a little food for thought.

I vote to ban Brainpiercing. Definitely worst member of 07.

[Tonbo]

Hahaha, this thread is hilarious. Not that I read any of it. Too many words, brain hurt.
For those just catching up, like myself, I've taken the time to condense and clarify.
Thread distilled: Blah blah blah, moron. Blah blah blah, idiot. Religions suck, people suck, you suck. But not really.

[Buzkashi]

And all this started from brainpiercing hulking out after I said that it was wrong to depict the Prophet.

[Brainpiercing]

If you take brainpiercings little rant in his last post and replace every usage of the word "islam, or muslim" with " Negro, or Nigger" you would sound almost exactly like a Klansman or a member of the Aryan Brotherhood.

Duh, except that's not what's written there. And anyway, you could replace it with "human", because that's about how far my dislike of religions goes. I dislike every religion, Islam just takes one of the top spots. There are overzealous freaks in most religions, but in none but islam are they made heroes of the masses. No organised religion but islam declares all-out war on anyone who criticises it. I can respect every muslim simply for being a human being. But I won't respect anyone for being a muslim. And I very much dislike the attitude many muslims adopt. However, I still would not dare destroying the muslim cultural heritage.

So call me a religionist if you like. But at least make it a universal one. Even so, I'm still a philantropist, too, just a very frustrated one.

P.S.: By the way, for people wondering what this discussion is about: It's not about anything, really. It's just a little flaming thrown in with some shoddy arguments which noone took the time to think through. (Guywildman at least knew what he was talking about. Noone else did. That includes me, I just wanted to see if I can get Buz to froth at the mouth.)

[Buzkashi]

I know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm glad to finally read that you don't though.

[Brainpiercing]

So far I haven't heard one single good argument or just a proven fact even from you. Seems your expertise is just an illusion on your part.

How often have you been in palestine, Buz?

[Shaka Zulu]

Wait...wait...you want to seriously "discuss" with him, and demand he comes with arguments...but thats the best you can come up with yourself?

First say his expertise is an illusion, then ask the most fucking irrelevant and juveline shit ever, like he needs to be in Palestine to know whats going on (the most two-faced and deflecting crap ever, like we arent in the infor-fucking-mation age). If you want to ask something specific, it would atleast show some serious intention or attempt to discuss. But you come up with pathetic weasel of posts like that and dare to ask anyone of to put forward a good argument?


This does not mean I'm with or agree with Buz in everything (---or yes I AM, zanks for the reminder siggy!), but its laughable if you want to take the highroad in this and say others cant debate, while you other then that last post, and your frigging cliche repetetive crap of generalising in how many levels you hate islam, is doing the exact opposite of showing any will to debate anything.

[Rolos]

Sheesh. it seems that my "no pictures joke" was misunderstood.
Buzkashi had prevoiuusly declared that any muslim that ignores part of the Coran (or Quran) to make his life more comfortable is a fucking hipocryte, so I tried to make a joke about it by saying that the Coran forbid human or religious pictures, making Buzkashi himnself a Hipocryte becuase he likes Berserk.
I wasnt really serious. BTW, the word you are looking for is Iconoclast. Those guys hate any kind of physical representation of god because, acording to them, it leads to idolatry.

About the second part of my post, I know, it was very simplist from my part to summarize an entire conflict to a single pharagraph, but IMO opinion those are the main reasons of the conflict we are seeing nowadays. And I agree with you, the conflict is mainly due to political (and economical) reasons.

[Shaka Zulu]

In the future, rolleyes is not a good way to hint at that you are joking (but any of the haha smileys will do), the opposite really (bit of the self-important douchebag's choice of smiley IMO haha).

And the Koran (or Quran, but Coran, makes me think of frigging Conan hehe) doesnt strictly forbid to the letter pictures etc (not that I'm an expert, but this easy enough to know). Its not clear cut like that (or that serious of measure, it got complicated over time, but at first was just an common sense rule, Message > idolworship etc)), would be easy if it was, everyone would agree due to it being a religious fact. Instead there is many intepretations of it. It was really not that big of an issue at first, but there's allways zealots who want to dogmatize everything, and say they ofcourse are right ( like why there's so many christian affliations, there's allways stupid stuff to disagree about, no matter how trivial).

So next time someone says this or that is so because its occording to the Koran, be careful to take it at face value. Too many people invent or misintepret whatever they feel like. Try to copyright the Koran so to speak.

And Thanks for the new word, goes directly to my fake dictionary. Never heard the word iconoclast before.

[dialdfordesi]

Brainpiercing, I believe your notions of Islam are biased because the most exposure people usually get is with the people on the news. Like I said earlier, those extremists are Middle Eastern, and the Middle East has 20% of the total Muslim population, so the extremists are a fraction (don't know how large, but you can't say all of them act on such extremist sentiments) of that 20%. You don't hear much news about the rest of the everyday Muslims because it's not news that sells. Every religion has its own people that take things too far, and those extremists are just an example of it.

Islam isn't the problem with the extremists.

[Buzkashi]

Sheesh. it seems that my "no pictures joke" was misunderstood.
Buzkashi had prevoiuusly declared that any muslim that ignores part of the Coran (or Quran) to make his life more comfortable is a fucking hipocryte, so I tried to make a joke about it by saying that the Coran forbid human or religious pictures, making Buzkashi himnself a Hipocryte becuase he likes Berserk.
I wasnt really serious. BTW, the word you are looking for is Iconoclast. Those guys hate any kind of physical representation of god because, acording to them, it leads to idolatry.

What part of the Quran talks about that? I forgot. But since you are so knowledgeable, you think you can help a brotha out?

[Shaka Zulu]

Haha, be nice. But yeah, assumptions is the mother of all fuck ups (or is it generalisations). If you start to imagine and take every little hearsay at face value, instead look things up for yourself, then its a good chance you may end up like like an ignorant schmuck with distorted views of things (there is so many who think they know what the Quran says without ever reading a single syllable), and who is quick to generalise because he is too daft to try to find out more.


Oh, like our friend Brainpercing.

[Rolos]

Shhaka zulu: May be it was the wrong smilie, I accept it, but dont tell me the world iconoclast is fake. Its latin you retard. (ok, that was too much, but dont tell me i invent words, its in my fucking history textbook "*Richard Krebs* univeral history") Icono = idol or symbol Clast = means disruption, decomposition, destruction.

Buzkashi: Let me look for the source, i will link you to it. In the meantime, please try to avoid calling me ignorant moron just because i didnt back up a joke. Relax. Take a deep breath and stop insulting people.

[Buzkashi]

What the fuck is wrong with you. I should be insulting you I really should. In fact, in another time you would have been flamed off the board.

However as it is, I've yet to say anything insulting towards you.

You need to stop taking cheap shots at me. You keep trying to pull fast ones on me but you are very very very slow.

[Shaka Zulu]

Shhaka zulu: May be it was the wrong smilie, I accept it, but dont tell me the world iconoclast is fake. Its latin you retard. (ok, that was too much, but dont tell me i invent words, its in my fucking history textbook "*Richard Krebs* univeral history") Icono = idol or symbol Clast = means disruption, decomposition, destruction.

Buzkashi: Let me look for the source, i will link you to it. In the meantime, please try to avoid calling me ignorant moron just because i didnt back up a joke. Relax. Take a deep breath and stop insulting people.

Firstly, I should apologise for confusing you (no offense, you seem to be easily confused), even if you just called me a retard (haha).

I wasnt being sarcastic AT ALL, I havent heard of that word before, and was saying thanks in a light-hearted and stupid way that I seriously just learnt a new word. Looking over that sentence again, I realise how it can be mistaken for me giving you attitude (the fake dictionary term threw you off I guess, meant I missunderstand words mostly so its no point remembering them). But your reaction is quite fucking funny still. If anything I was mocking myself for my bad english (and not for knowing a hard and unique word like iconoclast), my english in general isnt too good.


Secondly, even if he was somewhat mocking you (its called irony/sarcasm), he didnt insult you. So you should be the one taking a deep breath. He valid reasons for questionning your knowledge, because you said in what seemed like a quite serious way (and apparently nothing but serious because you are going to provide a source?), and in a rather ignorant way that watching any picture is taboo in islam.

So now it has gotten from a stupid joke you failed to deliver home because of lack of smileys (and it isnt funny anyway)...to you seriously shuffling through your sources?

What I have learned so far of you is this...you seem to think people are insulting you when THEY'RE NOT. You would really notice if I'm insulting you (and Buzkashi is as straight forward in insulting as you can get If anything its weird he isnt insulting you when you are the one trying to belittle and mock him, started it all with that "joke"). Bit too paranoid amigo.

[Brainpiercing]

Brainpiercing, I believe your notions of Islam are biased because the most exposure people usually get is with the people on the news. Like I said earlier, those extremists are Middle Eastern, and the Middle East has 20% of the total Muslim population, so the extremists are a fraction (don't know how large, but you can't say all of them act on such extremist sentiments) of that 20%. You don't hear much news about the rest of the everyday Muslims because it's not news that sells. Every religion has its own people that take things too far, and those extremists are just an example of it.

Islam isn't the problem with the extremists.

There is a group of cops somewhere in SE Asia somewhere who actually managed to turn the head terrorist of the area around completely - without attacking his faith at all. They turned him into a complete pacifist, and he's been doing the same to other potential terrorists ever since. Moreover, he travels around the country without a single bodyguard, unarmed, even though he is a well-known collaborator. Now that's what I call awesome. I just can't find the source anymore. Still, that's a muslim I can highly respect.

One more question, though about the middle easter muslims: There have been a multitude of demonstrations in the west against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Please point me to documented protest in the middle east against terrorism against the west, or even just against civilians anywhere. (This is an actual question, I do want to know.)

[Buzkashi]

Wow. No really. That last bit really really really tuck it over the edge.

Protests in the mid east against terrorism in the west. You really buy into this whole "war on terror" bit. I'm not going to even try and explain it to you. And frankly I could give a shit about what you think anymore, you obviously have no distinction between bad and good and truth and lies.

[Brainpiercing]

Er, actually I do. I think it's wrong to bomb civilians, whoever does it. Whether by aircraft or by car bombs. I'd like to see the islamic world distance itself just a bit from what its more extreme members commit, instead of hailing them as heroes.

I shouldn't be going back there, but you were the one who condoned sending children to mine fields. If you think that is good, then we don't need to go on talking. But I've already experienced how you twist the responsibilities in this case. You're the number one hypocrite here. There is no objectivity in your words, you just select facts that suit you. You claim to side with the victims all the time, but I don't see that at all.

Oh, and, I don't buy into the war on terror. I'm just sick of bending over out of respect for super-sensitive muslims and then having my own values trampled on.

Good and bad, my ass, you really make me sick.