Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

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Abortion... one hot topic. Your stance?

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Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby psi29a » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:05 am

…some right-wing, right-to-life, so-called Christians can be?

http://claimingmyinnerbitch.wordpress.com/2007/06/17/can-i-tell-you-how-stupid/

IB wrote:Have I mentioned that I have been a nurse for nearly 23 years? And that I worked 14 of those in a high-risk perinatal setting. In a hospital with a Level 3 designation, providing high-tech, high-quality obstetric care.

Here is the entire text of the brief piece, which CNN got from the AP. And I’m sure they paid the royalties to them, too.

AP wrote: MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota (AP) — Half of the sextuplets born prematurely to a Minnesota couple have now died, while the others remained in critical condition, hospital officials said Saturday.

A third boy, Lincoln Sean Morrison, died Friday. Two of his brothers, Tryg and Bennet, died earlier in the week.

The four boys and two girls were born last Sunday about 4½ months early at a Minneapolis hospital. Doctors had advised the couple to selectively reduce the number of viable fetuses to two, but they declined.

Parents Ryan and Brianna Morrison released a statement saying it has been “a difficult week” for them, and they thanked everyone for their prayers and support.

“We continue to trust in the Lord and are hopeful for a good outcome for Cadence, Lucia and Sylas,” the statement said.

Hospital officials said no further information would be released.


Can I tell you how frustrating this is for an OB nurse?

When I worked in my last life, I worked with two women with fertility problems. Actually, I worked with quite a few with fertility problems but these two stand out in my mind particularly at the moment.

Linda was in her thirties, happily married and Christian. I can’t remember all the specifics but Linda underwent fertility treatments including drugs like Pergonal and Clomid, the use of which frequently gives rise to conception of serious multiples (quads or greater). Mary was in her twenties, married, Catholic and Italian. I have no idea of her fertility treatment but she conceived quads.

Linda was initially pregnant with four babies, selectively aborted one and carried three babies to over 35 weeks gestation before delivering them, all in the vicinity of five pounds. None of them needed assistance with breathing. They all fed. They may have had a few bumps but, pretty much, were as near a term pregnancy as any triplets are likely to get.

Mary, being from a staunch Catholic upbringing, opted not to selectively terminate and tried to bring her quads to term. I believe they delivered in the vicinity of 33 to 34 weeks, considerably earlier and lighter than Linda’s triplets. Mary required much intervention during her pregnancy, developing preterm labor necessitating medications. Some of those PTL meds are not the kindest or best things for even a relatively healthy, childbearing age woman.

I don’t think any of Mary’s babies was able to leave the hospital with her. If I remember correctly, they all required feeding tubes. Some of them may have had assisted ventilation (probably with nasal C-pap.) I think at least two of Linda’s three went home with Mom…it might have been all three.

I had the pleasure of taking care of Linda in the last few weeks of her pregnancy, when she was confined to the hospital. I also took care of her afterward and helped her to learn to breastfeed. Those are some of the fondest memories I have of my years as an OB nurse.

I never had to deal with Mary when she was hospitalized, thankfully. She was one of those nurses who claimed a moral and religious objection to caring for women during elective terminations. Frankly, I always thought she was just lazy and not really so morally offended, more of a selective Catholic, but that’s an even snarkier post for a really snarky day.

If the Minnesota couple had chosen to reduce the number of fetuses in the pregnancy to three, they might all have left with Mom. Had they reduced the number of babies to four, they would all probably still be alive.

As it stands, they delivered six babies at roughly 22 weeks. A 22-week singleton stands, at best, a 50-50 shot, in my estimation. And that’s a 22-weeker that didn’t have to spend those weeks sharing his environment with five siblings.

As it is, the six babies have required a tremendous amount of health care resources. I’m sure not one was able to breathe on his or her own at birth meaning 6 full teams of neonatal nurses, doctors and respiratory therapists needed to be present. Every effort is made to save any neonate, regardless of gestational age, after the point of potential viability (around 22 weeks when I left OB in 2001).

The three boys who’ve died were each treated by a team of those professionals along with all the ancillary departments necessary for a very sick infant. The three surviving babies, I’m sure, remain in a neonatal intensive care unit, fully ventilated, unable to eat, unable to see yet. Totally unprepared for survival in the environment into which they’ve been thrust.

I don’t begrudge them the medical care, which will run into millions of dollars if many more survive. God bless them that they were able to provide care for their children. I begrudge their parents’ complete lack of foresight via blind devotion to a religious ideology. It is my opinion their ideology is flawed, is too literal and basic and lacks any sense of nuance. I’m of the opinion that four of those babies might be alive today had two of them been selectively terminated early in the pregnancy.

Imagine that…abortion might have saved the life of a child that is now dead.

Theirs is a black and white world. Too bad most of the world comes at us in lovely and varied shades of grey.

What a waste.

Oh, I’ll link it up later…I’ve got a bath waiting…
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Eldo » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:43 am

All I can say is:

Only in America.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby arke » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:41 am

All I can say is:

Should've gone to Mayo.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Tempest » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:52 am

I never understood America's fascination with the abortion issue. If you want an abortion, you get an abortion. If you don't want an abortion, you don't get an abortion. If you want to tell your friends/neighbors/peers why they should/should not get an abortion, you do it yourselves, and you don't ask the government to illegalize a potentially life(both literally and figuratively)-saving medical procedure. If you're a man you just ignore the issue since it doesn't involve you and grab your picket sign because some God forsaken faggots are getting married down the street! Good lord it's an interracial gay couple too, go forth you God Warriors, only you can protect us stupid science-believing hippies from ourselves!

If all us lefties are getting aboritons and getting gay marriages you conservatives should be happy, that means less God Hating liberals for you to have to "preach" and "pray" for.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Shisho » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:10 am

No irony there I guess in using all this unnatural shit to have kids that God didn't want you to have to begin with since he made you infertile.

Infertility is generally related to being unhealthy, so let's use drugs to pump out 4-6 more of those little quarterpounders.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Starnum » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:26 am

Wow, only one pro-life vote eh? Heh, I believe people should have the right to choose, that's a form of freedom, IMO. Besides, how can I relate to some of the more serious issues. Though, I have and always will strongly advise against it. *shrugs*
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby psi29a » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:08 pm

You can be pro-choice and choose life.

It can be a double edge sword, i mean for example you can always just give the child up for adoption. Problems arise when it is the product of rape or could endanger the life of the woman. By having laws in place that make abortion illegal, it just raises the chances that both will die.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Starnum » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:22 pm

Yeah, that's how I see it too.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby reiketsu » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:43 pm

See... I'm not any christian/general religious fanatic that fervorously fight against abortion. I just belive people is deffending the "choice" but banalizing certain points. Yes, I'm favorable to abortion on SPECIFIC cases. Let's say, if a girl/woman are victim of a rape, you can't force her to have the kid, or is it represent a life-risk to the female. But a girl/woman who got pregenat because haven't 3 bucks to get a damn condon and went wild on a party shouldn't have the privillege to get a rid of a life just because have it wouldn't be convenient. Punishment? I face is a justice.

Now, badmouth a whole religious comunity because we've got a handful of ignorant rednecks that had a very twisted education during their lives is simply unfair.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Tonbo » Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:26 pm

reiketsu wrote:See... I'm not any christian/general religious fanatic that fervorously fight against abortion. I just belive people is deffending the "choice" but banalizing certain points. Yes, I'm favorable to abortion on SPECIFIC cases. Let's say, if a girl/woman are victim of a rape, you can't force her to have the kid, or is it represent a life-risk to the female. But a girl/woman who got pregenat because haven't 3 bucks to get a damn condon and went wild on a party shouldn't have the privillege to get a rid of a life just because have it wouldn't be convenient. Punishment? I face is a justice.

Now, badmouth a whole religious comunity because we've got a handful of ignorant rednecks that had a very twisted education during their lives is simply unfair.



You're not just punishing that stupid girl, you're punishing all of society. Giving birth is inherently a selfish act, and one we are compelled to do in the drive to propagate and preserve our selfish genes. To move forward towards a society without without war and crime, we need to ensure access to resources for all the population, and part of that includes responsibly managing the population. Steven Levitt made the statistical association between the rise in abortion and drop in crime, and that should make obvious sense. Unwanted drug addicted babies are born as parasites on society and have a high probability of remaining a parasite for their unhappily brief estimated life span.

Medically, fetuses are parasites on the mother. I can not justify making a woman bear an unwanted parasite in her body for nine months on the possibility it will become a productive member of society or something deemed important by a religious belief she doesn't share.


I'll even throw out that there are ethical arguments for extending abortion to 2 years of age based on neurocognitive development (Just for debate, NOT a suggested policy initiative before conservatives start having heart attacks over this one.)


It's my personal opinion that everyone should be on long acting depot birth control and they should have to fill out an application and take a parenting class before they're allowed to have a baby.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Eldo » Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:12 am

reiketsu wrote:See... I'm not any christian/general religious fanatic that fervorously fight against abortion. I just belive people is deffending the "choice" but banalizing certain points. Yes, I'm favorable to abortion on SPECIFIC cases. Let's say, if a girl/woman are victim of a rape, you can't force her to have the kid, or is it represent a life-risk to the female. But a girl/woman who got pregenat because haven't 3 bucks to get a damn condon and went wild on a party shouldn't have the privillege to get a rid of a life just because have it wouldn't be convenient. Punishment? I face is a justice.


But is this also a punishment to the child who has to grow up in such an environment, and quite possibly doomed to follow her/his mother's footsteps? If the mother does not have any ability to take care of the child or raise her/him, it would be more punishing to the child rather than the mother. Who knows what impact this would have on the child when he/she grows up? You're essentially putting the livelihood of the mother and her child in jeopardy. I think Tonto explained it quite clearly in his first paragraph.

Now, while you're favourable to abortion on specific cases, the moral standpoint and argument of the church and other religious groups is that abortion is murder. When a victim of rape has an abortion, under the argument of the church, she is committing 'murder'. 'Murder' is still 'murder', an abortion is still an abortion, no matter under what kind of circumstances. Your stance on abortion seems like that it shouldn't be that conveniently accessible, but not necessarily against 'taking a life'. You're standing on middle-ground here, which I find a bit weird. You're denying the right of a woman's choice to her body to one group (and condemning them), and opening the gates to another. OK, for argument's sake, if only the victim of a rape is allowed abortions and other situations can not, what's to say the the girl/woman who went wild on a party won't say she was raped? Would this be justice to the man who has been accused of rape? This simply cannot be implemented.

Now, badmouth a whole religious comunity because we've got a handful of ignorant rednecks that had a very twisted education during their lives is simply unfair.


While I'm not badmouthing a religious community in this thread, I think I'm accurate to say that the general consensus (and not the entirety) of the community would agree that abortion is a form of murder or would not have one because it is the will of the church. However, that's not to say that certain individuals would not be tolerant to this matter. A Christian may not have an abortion based on her religious beliefs, but would not condemn or prejudice another individual for having one. What we are targeting here are the hard core religious fanatics that ignore all logic and advice because of their 'letter of the law' beliefs.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Death&Rebirth » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:04 am

Don't forget that the problem with "abortion" isn't abortion itself.
One of the greatest "facts" that "pro-life" like to add to the abortion discussion is that by allowing it would result in a increase of abortion cases. There's no hint whatsoever that concludes this. The decision of making an abortion is one of the hardest that the future mother has to take, not to mention the impact of doing so will have in her private and social life.

Make it a felony (with some exceptions, which are already contemplated in most of judicial systems) will not stop abortion but it will increase the health danger to the future mother. It will increase more underground clinics and sleazy doctors who want to gain a fast buck out of desperation of others.

The real solution is in education and this is what lacks more and no one seems interested in promoting this. Educating the masses with family planning, contraceptives and health care. I don't see the condom industry going bankruptcy if they decided to promote more the use of it and free distribute in the young population.

And pretty much this debate comes from the origin of life, with all the biblical references anyone can pull. When can we call something a living being? Since conception? I always had the notion (and still is my strong belief) that we can call something a living thing at birth, because it's when it become (in certain aspect) autonomous and free of the symbiotic ("parasitic" as someone already stated) relation established in her mother womb. Call a fetus a living thing, imo, is as much as call a spermatozoon or the egg life itself and i don't see anyone screaming "genocide" every time he caught someone masturbating.

Curious, some of the people that defend life and are against abortion, regardless of any contradicts that might come up, are also pro death penalty for the most violet and gruesome crimes.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Tonbo » Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:46 pm

Death&Rebirth wrote:
Curious, some of the people that defend life and are against abortion, regardless of any contradicts that might come up, are also pro death penalty for the most violet and gruesome crimes.


It is indeed a hilarious contradiction. It even made it as an Onion caption "Pro-lifer is Pro Death"
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Tonbo » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:19 pm

An oldy but goody by levitt on abortion in the NYTimes is active
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2 ... akonomics/

He's blogging about the research that lead up to that very influential paper currently...
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2 ... come-from/
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2 ... -evidence/
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Fuji Nagase » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:54 am

i just kind of stumbled onto this thread but i feel strongly on this subject so even though its kind of old, im still putting in my 2 cents.

bassically, if some guy went to a party, got shit faced and fucked some girl, he still cant get pregnant. no matter what, he will NOT have a parasyte in his body that he has to endure for 9 months and then give birth to. having a child isnt just about what happens after the birth as many have also said. giving your baby up for adoption is NOT the same as an abortion. nothing is 100% in terms of non getting preg when having sex, so even if she is on birth control and they use a condom, it can still happen. its not always rape or some stupid slut. it can very well be one of your girlfriends or your sister...

I always thought it was so fucked up that someone could tell me, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THAT CHILD. no way, anywhere will anyone tell me what the fuck i have to do with my organs. they are mine! so it seems so obvious to me...if you want an abortion, have one. if not, DONT. im with a lot of you here...it seems so simple..


many people hate abortion but support the death penalty. if its okay to kill a murderer who killed 8 people, then what if a woman had saved 8 people and got pregnant? i guess its okay to get an abortion now isnt it. its all bullshit. abortion shouldnt be our focus. we have too many more important things to talk about than this..i know many people have said that, but its so true. hm. okay. done.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Buzkashi » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:00 pm

We got a lot of baby killers in here.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby LordMune » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:08 am

Buzkashi wrote:We got a lot of baby killers in here.


And that's a good thing (I'd never abort you though Buz we're BFF).
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Tonbo » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:24 pm

Buzkashi wrote:We got a lot of baby killers in here.


Indeed, on points of moral contention I always ask myself WWGD?
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Shaka Zulu » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:01 pm

Not to be pedantic over semantics Fuji, and not saying I disagree with anything in particular in what you said ((I'm more extremely grey then black or white on the topic), but can you point out which use of word I find very much out of place and horrible in this sentence of yours? "no matter what, he will NOT have a parasyte in his body that he has to endure for 9 months and then give birth to". I'm not sure if its english langauge thing, but I doubt it. In that case its just semantics, but its quite insanely cold reference. Regardless of how emtional the topic is, quite exaggerated way to put it.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Tonbo » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:35 am

Shaka Zulu wrote:Not to be pedantic over semantics Fuji, and not saying I disagree with anything in particular in what you said ((I'm more extremely grey then black or white on the topic), but can you point out which use of word I find very much out of place and horrible in this sentence of yours? "no matter what, he will NOT have a parasyte in his body that he has to endure for 9 months and then give birth to". I'm not sure if its english langauge thing, but I doubt it. In that case its just semantics, but its quite insanely cold reference. Regardless of how emtional the topic is, quite exaggerated way to put it.


Medically speaking, Fuji is 100% correct. A fetus is a parasite: "A parasite is an organism that lives in or on the living tissue of a host organism at the expense of that host." It's impossible to understand fetal or maternal physiology without that fundamental recognition. Any other meaning we attach to the fetus is purely cultural.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Shaka Zulu » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:53 pm

Ahhh good thing it was a language thing, as said that could confuse me regardless of how well I grasp the langauge (its still only my 4th langauge afterall). The expression threw me off, would be uncharacteristic of fuji to mean it in they way I thought, so just asked to be sure.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Buzkashi » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:11 pm

Of course it can be described as a parasite.

But Zulu there was definitely a heavy negative connotation there if thats what your were trying to get at.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Shaka Zulu » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:08 pm

Yeah thats what I meant, like if her use of it was meant to be just quite insanely cold and negative way to describe life itself ( like its the child/fetus fault that it was conceived out of rape). It just sounded very very off.

I havent heard it described as parasite before, but if its just another way to describe it, a technical or formal way to describe it (I usually understand new words if in right context, in this case it sounded bit missplaced and cruel), then I plead ignorance, scusi for missunderstanding.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Buzkashi » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:57 am

Shaka Zulu wrote:Yeah thats what I meant, like if her use of it was meant to be just quite insanely cold and negative way to describe life itself ( like its the child/fetus fault that it was conceived out of rape). It just sounded very very off.

I havent heard it described as parasite before, but if its just another way to describe it, a technical or formal way to describe it (I usually understand new words if in right context, in this case it sounded bit missplaced and cruel), then I plead ignorance, scusi for missunderstanding.




Sall good. Its a cultural thing. Here in the west we like to put the blame on everything but ourselves.
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Re: Can I tell you how stupid… (about Abortion)

Postby Fuji Nagase » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:47 am

yup. everyone pretty much covered it. sorry for the confusion. you have to remember that if you had to go through child birth with an unwanted child, that phrase might not be so far off. now i personally dont think quite so strongly that way, in fact my friend morgan is really against having children and always calld babies that. i think its a valid point and however dramatic it may be, being preg. is pretty fucking dramatic.
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