Murdered for being an Atheist

[LordMune]

There is a difference between being killed for your beliefs and murdered for what you don't believe.

EDIT: And the Christian persecution complex is just ugh.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Is that so? Well isnt it true you have to believe there isnt a god? Same principle, different concepts. For example: Topic: God, Is there one? Is there not one? Various Answers: No there is not a god and yes there is a God. Two totally different perspectives for the same topic. Problem:An atheist walks up to a christian with a weapon. The atheist says "If you believe in god i will kill you" the christian says he believes and the atheist kills the christian. Problem: A christian walks up to and atheist and says "if you dont believe there is i god i will kill you" the atheist says there isnt a god and the christian kills the atheist.

Same principle different concepts, only in Psi's version its a christian killing an atheist.

There is a difference between being killed for your beliefs and murdered for what you don't believe.

Edit: Its funny how you say "killed" instead of murdered(murdered being a more exagerated term, more repulsive, a crime to humans) to say it as though they wernt murdered but as though they had it coming...

[square-enix]

During this century, we have documented cases in excess of 26 million martyrs. From AD 33 to 1900, we have documented 14 million martyrs. So, yes, this quote is correct.

Surely you jest. A mere 14 million over a 1867 year span is nothing compared to the hundreds of millions that were persecuted by the Church in a 300 year period.

Other religions have been formed(and are not persecuted) but no other religion in history(save for the Jews, Gods chosen people(and from which is what chrisitianity was started) have been tortured, beaten, outcasted, murdered than the "religion of christianity. Why?

Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and any polytheist religion don’t count as persecuted? Although not religious groups, there are also pagans and witches.
Any ill will towards Christianity comes from fault of your own. (And Islam but Europeans initiated the attack) Many claim that the various branches of Christianity are ‘less’ Christian because they aren’t part of your branch. Simply look at Western Europeans sacking fellow Christians in the Byzantine Empire or the current Northern Ireland conflict.

To be a Christian is to be a light in darkness.

What are you on about? Last I checked, Christianity dominated around one-third of the world.

People fear denying the holy spirit out of the fear of the reprocusions for their sins.

Fixed.

Problem:An atheist walks up to a christian with a weapon. The atheist says "If you believe in god i will kill you" the christian says he believes and the atheist kills the christian. Problem: A christian walks up to and atheist and says "if you dont believe there is i god i will kill you" the atheist says there isnt a god and the christian kills the atheist.

Apparently you overlooked the fact that there are more religious murders then the opposite.

[Eldo]

Zoddsno1fan, you're a nut. You're also a moron. The point is that a person holding religious beliefs murdering another of different or no beliefs far outnumber cases where an atheist murders another person for holding religious beliefs. The article you used is obviously biased already, and far from credible, in fact, since it doesn't cite or give historical evidence from any other historical journals in which the research was based on makes me doubt the authenticity of the article. It can be a bloody editorial or a fan fiction for all it's worth.

I also read the Columbine example you used before you edited it out. At least you didn't blame video games. Or bowling. However, that made me cement your status as a complete and utter loon. Apparently, your word far outweighed that of the witness.

In case anyone did not know, I'm atheist. What I hate about Christians is that they impose their religion upon others, forcibly or otherwise. I had to fight my way off people preaching their crap to me, and I have many 'dedicated' Christian friends break off all ties to me because of my non-believer status.

To be a Christian is to be a light in darkness. Darkness cannot exits where there is light, we are salt in light.

This sentence really ticked me off. So what you're saying is that people with other various faiths are in darkness too? The sheer arrogance of your statement that suggests that being a Christian is better than the other faiths, and thereby everything else. As square-enix mentioned, with the numbers, you're a huge pile of salt. I thought humility played a part somewhere in the values. I guess not.

But wait, if these 'Christians' did murder someone, doesn't that mean (by whatever definition that changes to suit your group's needs) that they aren't Christians, since they violated the 'thou shalt not kill'? But yeah, I bet they probably repented for their sins, and still go to heaven but not get front row sits. It's awfully convenient how Christians have this repenting system and everything is A-OK again.

[psi29a]

For centuries Christians have been martyred for their beliefs.

I call complete and utter bullshit on that and any other Christian at least in the US that feels persecuted. Christians are in the majority here in the states, since when can they feel persecuted? If anything people of faith should be challenged, not on their personal beliefs but on their use of personal belief in other people's lives. If anyone feels persecuted it would be the minority of people consist of the atheists and agnostics who constantly having their rights taken away or at the very least being shot and killed. Christians can't play the martyrdom card, sorry.

To be a Christian is to be a light in darkness. Darkness cannot exits where there is light, we are salt in light.

If you want to get philosophical about it then I can point to you many a philosopher and theologian that have concluded that there is no such thing as good and evil. They are not facts.

The raw deal is that we live currently live in a world with mixed socities, some are kinship based and some are nation states. We have laws and social norms that dictate our actions. We have adapted as social creatures because it is in our interest to survive.

Religious "darkness and lightness" is just an extension of that to help people deal with things on a very common level because not all of us can take the time out of our lives to study the phenomenon in detail. We all can't be expected to be experts, however should you goto University then take these classes:

Law and Society
Fundamentals of Public Policy
Comparative Health Policy
American Foreign Policy: Past, Present, and Future
Causes and Prevention of War
Introduction to Comparative Politics
Social Movements in Comparative Perspective
Ethnicity and Race in World Politics
Soviet Politics and Society

For examples of the above in history (because we are not just pulling it out of our asses):

The Ancient World: Greece
The Ancient World: Rome
The Emergence of Europe: 500-1300
The Renaissance, 1300-1600
The Making of Russia in the Worlds of Byzantium, Mongolia, and Europe
France 1660-1815: Enlightenment, Revolution, Napoleon
History of Western Thought
The Age of Reason: Europe in the 18th and 19th Centuries
The Middle East in 20th Century
The World Since 1492
Visualizing Cultures
The Economic History of Work and Family

And the list goes on in on, depending on your major you will focus and cover a lot of ground that make you better able to grasp the world.

Please do notice that we cover a lot of history, and more importantly some of the history predates that of the concept of monotheism. Gods was the norm, the singular God didn't exist in anyone's mind.

[Albator]

If you are a grain of salt, you're the one that is rubbed on people's ass. Your posts are torture.

While you were trying to make some sense before, you must now get off your christian high or stop posting. This is just non sense, your are made of the material that makes people kill each other. I have no doubt you would be the first one to pull the trigger.

I read you consider yourself persecuted, the light in darkness, and all of this based on predicators bullshit, thin air and history rewriting. While at the same moment, you believe you can integrate a civilized discussion, based on facts and arguments, and ignoring all of what people said.

This section is not your place, this forum is probably not your place either, as it is populated with darkness.

[Skullkracker]

First of all: ZoddsNo1Fan: very nice post on the previous page

There is a difference between being killed for your beliefs and murdered for what you don't believe.

murder is murder I suppose

During this century, we have documented cases in excess of 26 million martyrs. From AD 33 to 1900, we have documented 14 million martyrs. So, yes, this quote is correct.

Surely you jest. A mere 14 million over a 1867 year span is nothing compared to the hundreds of millions that were persecuted by the Church in a 300 year period.

Are you guys all sure about these numbers? Let’s not get carried away in the heat of the argument!

Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and any polytheist religion don’t count as persecuted? Although not religious groups, there are also pagans and witches.
Any ill will towards Christianity comes from fault of your own. (And Islam but Europeans initiated the attack) Many claim that the various branches of Christianity are ‘less’ Christian because they aren’t part of your branch. Simply look at Western Europeans sacking fellow Christians in the Byzantine Empire or the current Northern Ireland conflict.

As far as I know the Northern Ireland conflict is rather ethnical and territorial based.

People fear denying the holy spirit out of the fear of the reprocusions for their sins.

Fixed.

is it?

Apparently you overlooked the fact that there are more religious murders then the opposite.

Care to back that up?

The point is that a person holding religious beliefs murdering another of different or no beliefs far outnumber cases where an atheist murders another person for holding religious beliefs.

Care to...oh, I said that already
You talk about atheist as the peaceful neutrals. Well...they aren't.

In case anyone did not know, I'm atheist. What I hate about Christians is that they impose their religion upon others, forcibly or otherwise. I had to fight my way off people preaching their crap to me, and I have many 'dedicated' Christian friends break off all ties to me because of my non-believer status.

I'm sure you didn't do anything to offend them.
(Please don't take this as a blame.)

To be a Christian is to be a light in darkness. Darkness cannot exits where there is light, we are salt in light.

This sentence really ticked me off. So what you're saying is that people with other various faiths are in darkness too? The sheer arrogance of your statement that suggests that being a Christian is better than the other faiths, and thereby everything else. As square-enix mentioned, with the numbers, you're a huge pile of salt. I thought humility played a part somewhere in the values. I guess not.

That sentence is based on a sentence of the Bible. It has a deeper, metaphorical meaning, take it as my ignorance, that I cannot explain it in details.
If you are an atheist, why should that bother you?

A huge pile of salt heh?
A great part of the so-called christians are those that sin in church 1,5 hours a week. That's not really the kind of salt the sentence means.

As for humility: it should be important. It doesn't come with the package though, faith won't make everyone instantly tactful a humble. And, it doesn't prevent stupidity...what a shame.

The christians I know don't feel superior to any other man. But we cannot escape the basic teachings of the Bible, and as much as I hate to say, not every road takes you to the top.

But wait, if these 'Christians' did murder someone, doesn't that mean (by whatever definition that changes to suit your group's needs) that they aren't Christians, since they violated the 'thou shalt not kill'? But yeah, I bet they probably repented for their sins, and still go to heaven but not get front row sits. It's awfully convenient how Christians have this repenting system and everything is A-OK again.

Not that simple. Yes, you can be forgiven, if you want to be forgiven, but does that make you a good person if you sin and then run and pray? No, it makes you a religious freerider, and an ass.
I'm sure this is not the proper explaination, but hey, I'm a simple guy.

For centuries Christians have been martyred for their beliefs.

I call complete and utter bullshit on that and any other Christian at least in the US that feels persecuted. Christians are in the majority here in the states, since when can they feel persecuted? If anything people of faith should be challenged, not on their personal beliefs but on their use of personal belief in other people's lives. If anyone feels persecuted it would be the minority of people consist of the atheists and agnostics who constantly having their rights taken away or at the very least being shot and killed. Christians can't play the martyrdom card, sorry.

Well shoot...

Seriously Psi, the world does not end in the USA.

Need I bring up that christianity started out as persecuted in the Roman Empire. As far as I remember every apostle was executed...or most of them at least.

There are parts of the world where you cannot openly practice your faith. Obviously, you are not aware of how communist countries work: no religion for you workers!
You can get killed for being a christian in parts of Africa.
And I've heard about soccer being played with a priest's head in South America.
Tough cookie.

Atheists having their rights taken away? Tell me about it!

This is just non sense, your are made of the material that makes people kill each other.

So are you and so am I.

This section is not your place, this forum is probably not your place either, as it is populated with darkness.

Well it is I must say. But I must defend the guy, he did no harm, just pissed many of you guys off. I'm sure I will do the same. So what? Noone said it was an atheists rant forum.

[Albator]

Being smart with "care to back that up" sentences is getting you nowhere, and shows that you haven't read the bundle of threads that has been made on this subject lately. Fact about what has been said are available by the dozen, repeating them for somebody that ignore them (so do you apparently) is useless. So yes, when you take the time to gather evidence and all of this is just ignored because of faith, yes you get pissed. And you just try to butt in without even knowing all that's been said? Does that make you a valid smartass? No.

You ask evidence without providing any yourself any, which is the rhetoric of Zoddfan. "Since I can't provide argument, why don't you provide any?". Except we do, but they are dismissed without other thought.

You don't have to play dumb just to defend faith. You are playing dumb, using really childish argument. We are all killing material, nice remark genius. And? Care to back that up? It's OK to be religious, it's not OK to ignore reality or even worse, deform it.

Since everybody seems to care, I am a catholic. Yes, I am, since my birth. Are you going to deny me those awesome deal you seems to get out of nowhere? Because hey, I'm part of the gang, I've been baptized, made my communion, got a church wedding. I'm in the house. Or are you going to say I'm not a catholic? Because I really consider myself as a catholic, and not an atheist. Believe it or not. Let's say you believe me (and you should), what right do you have to judge that I'm not a christian (edited for accuracy)?

THis forum is for everybody, but if you come here you must back up your claim. SPitting BS is going to be looked down upon. Do you think Zodds claims are as well backed up than others?

[dialdfordesi]

After reading the OP and other articles like it that talk about Christian fanatics, it really strikes me as odd when they think that by killing people they are doing God's bidding. Doesn't the Bible say "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?" Hasn't everyone sinned, even by accident? It's amazing and horrible how people can twist or conveniently forget the teachings of their religion to legitimize cruelty to others.

[MrFelony]

off the topic a little:

I was watching an interesting talk between Justice Scolia and Justice Breyer in which Scolia said something along the lines that the government must be severely neutral, but when it comes to religion vs atheism, the government is clearly on teh side of religion. He then went to explain his point much better than i can, but he talked about that our government was founded on the idea of religion and religion is very much apart of our government.

[Skullkracker]

Ok Albator, I'll try to answer everything:

Time is something I have currently very little of, so yes, I might have overlooked something. I don't know however which facts support that religious people murder more atheists than atheists do religious people.
And, I was trying to point out that not only religious people kill. Which was suggested by some of the statements.
I've seen some numbers, for which I do not see the sources. You may have realized that my queston went to Zoddfan too, I only aknowledged how openly he talked. I haven't expected that from him before.
Sorry if I misunderstood something. I don't want to argue about sentences while I do not know if whether they are random opinions or documented facts.

[Brainpiercing]

Probably most of the christians killed for their beliefs were killed by other christians (of a different faction of this diverse faith). I can't back this up, but there must have been a whole lot of christians killing each other.

It's the same with the muslims, now. Sunna and Shia killing each other over technicalities. Stupid, stupid, stupid human beings.

And the cases of christians being killed by others, well, it seems to have been largely a case of mono-theist vs. poly-theist in the past. The trouble with christianity (or any mono-theist religion) is it's claim of absoluteness, especially when missioning actively. A poly-theist religion can accept other poly-theist religions, because there is no claim that those gods are exactly the ones that exist, while others don't. But they can't accept a mono-theist religion.

Look at Rome. The Romans accepted a lot of individual foreign gods, as long as they did not interfere with the rest. Also, there must have been a bit of a misunderstanding in that the Romans thought the christians wanted to rule the world, or something like that.

Look at Japan. The main Japanese faith (Shintoism) a humongous mixture of different beliefs, in fact, shintoism integrates a bit of of almost every religion around asia, but still, christians were persecuted in Japan. Why they and not others? Simple, as soon as people began believing in the christian god, they couldn't believe all the rest anymore. So either all the rest was wrong, or christianity was wrong. And then people started killing each other again over their version of the little green men in their heads. I do suppose there were some politics in the mix, too.

And now look at the different mono-theist religions (ok, the three main ones), who's enlightened members all claim to believe in the same god, but in reality they find nothing better to do many a day than to kill each other off for minor deviations of the true faith. Makes you really lose faith in human nature.

In my opinion, they are all nuts.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

The mass murder of 1 million Tibetans by Atheists(communists)

"Tibet?" Yes, that is my point. Hardly any Americans seem to know about the situation in Tibet. Consider the following:

Like Colonial America of the 1700s, Tibet is occupied by a foreign army and the Tibetan people are being governed against their will by an oppressive foreign government. Unlike early America, however, Tibet has been a nation since the second century BCE, and is now being forcibly resettled; her natural resources are being exploited and Tibetans are being prohibited from worshipping as they choose. Since 1950, more than 1 million Tibetans have been killed, thousands of monasteries have been destroyed, art and literature has been burned, and possessions have been confiscated. Ordinary citizens who do not renounce the spiritual
authority of certain religious leaders are at risk of imprisonment and torture in "re-education" camps.

Today, the Tibetan language is prohibited from being taught in the schools, while the history books are edited of all mention of a previously free and independent Tibet. The government perpetuating this barbarism has signed many U.N. treaties supporting human rights, and denouncing torture, yet violates these same treaties in Tibet and its own country.

Why is the United States silent on this tragedy? Perhaps, as concisely expressed by a 12-year boy in a recent movie about this very subject, it is because "America is scared shitless of China."

"Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy."

Mao Tse-Tung - Atheist

Well since you didnt like me talking about Christians only how about being killed for haveing a religion, period. Budism, christian, jewish doesnt matter, if your not an atheist here, you will be killed.

Stop making religion seem the perpatraitor here when in truth millions upon million have been killed in the name of a peaceful religion as opposed to not haveing a religion. In fact its those who dont have a religion who are in the red seeing how they think religion should "fall", and in return kill other religions.


Edit: As for Brainpiercing, no this isnt true. Christians and the like have been killed by communism(atheist) the most.

Murder by Communism(atheists)

With this understood, the Soviet Union appears the greatest megamurderer of all, apparently killing near 61,000,000 people. Stalin himself is responsible for almost 43,000,000 of these. Most of the deaths, perhaps around 39,000,000 are due to lethal forced labor in gulag and transit thereto. Communist China up to 1987, but mainly from 1949 through the cultural revolution, which alone may have seen over 1,000,000 murdered, is the second worst megamurderer. Then there are the lesser megamurderers, such as North Korea and Tito's Yugoslavia.

Obviously the population that is available to kill will make a big difference in the total democide, and thus the annual percentage rate of democide is revealing. By far, the most deadly of all communist countries and, indeed, in this century by far, has been Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot and his crew likely killed some 2,000,000 Cambodians from April 1975 through December 1978 out of a population of around 7,000,000. This is an annual rate of over 8 percent of the population murdered, or odds of an average Cambodian surviving Pol Pot's rule of slightly over just over 2 to 1.

In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.

110 million killed in 87 years. unbelievable! yet fact.

Stop acting like the religious are in the wrong when in fact your fellow Atheists are the worlds problem.

[newbified]

Communists are all Athiests? Funny, I never knew that little tidbit.

[Eldo]

I'll just answer the sentences directed at me by Skullkracker, which he answered with by each point without further elaborating.

Care to...oh, I said that already
You talk about atheist as the peaceful neutrals. Well...they aren't.

Oh. So you mean...since the atheists aren't peaceful neutrals, they had it coming? Wow, so I guess you're following the old testament, about an eye for an eye.

I'm sure you didn't do anything to offend them.
(Please don't take this as a blame.)

Of course I done nothing to offend them, but quite the latter, actually. In fact, I try to re-establish contact with them, but it seems I must be Christian in order to talk to them, or else I might 'taint' them with my unholy values. I'm not sure who filled their heads with this kind of bullshit.

That sentence is based on a sentence of the Bible. It has a deeper, metaphorical meaning, take it as my ignorance, that I cannot explain it in details.
If you are an atheist, why should that bother you?

A huge pile of salt heh?

I'm sure this is not the proper explaination, but hey, I'm a simple guy.
A great part of the so-called christians are those that sin in church 1,5 hours a week. That's not really the kind of salt the sentence means.

As for humility: it should be important. It doesn't come with the package though, faith won't make everyone instantly tactful a humble. And, it doesn't prevent stupidity...what a shame.

The christians I know don't feel superior to any other man. But we cannot escape the basic teachings of the Bible, and as much as I hate to say, not every road takes you to the top.

Oh. And here I thought you guys interpret the bible literally. From what I get about the salt, it's trying to suggest that there are a small number of actual Christians fighting the darkness, like a needle in a haystack. But with the sheer number of Christians around the world, it seems that the grains of salt collect together to make a pile.

I also thought that believing in values comes along with faith. So one needs to have faith only to be a Christian, and not necessary follow the values. OK, I get that now.

Most Christians I know are completely arrogant and have disdain for atheists and everyone else. They also carry no respect for other people's religion. They created this rift between Christians and others; you're either with us or you're not. I'm sure with your band of people, you're willing to overlook their flaws, but maybe they treat other people like shit and little people.

Not that simple. Yes, you can be forgiven, if you want to be forgiven, but does that make you a good person if you sin and then run and pray? No, it makes you a religious freerider, and an ass.

But it would also make him Christian. Unless, you want to exclude him out of your definition, because he made you look bad.

You can get killed for being a christian in parts of Africa.
And I've heard about soccer being played with a priest's head in South America.

'Care to back it up?' Oh, I haven't said that yet, so it's OK.

And YOU'VE heard about soccer being played with a priest's head? Because that sounds awfully like it's taken from a movie I watched before, yet the name escapes me. So...any news articles supporting your claim? Was this priest murdered for being Christian, or was he killed for molesting children?

Zoddsno1fan has further cemented his retarded status with 'atheists are communists'. Complete lawl.

[LordMune]

Zoddsno1fan just blew my mind by equating atheists with communists.

Jesus fucking christ.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Here yea go. This is proof of your ignorance in this topic.

"There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience."

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_c ... /marx.html

This goes with evolution as well. If evolution is true then what is morality? we are all animals if evolution is true. right? So why not sin openly without reproach...there will never be a concequence for your actions....right? Why not produce as many children as you can? why are you not able to have 10 wives? What is a lie? What is murder...survival of the fittest right?

edit: heres something about the salt and light.

Salt and Light was a metaphor that was frequently used in classical times by Jews to describe the Mosaic law. At the time, salt was a highly valuable commodity, and was often used as payment (hence the term salary - derived from the Latin word for salt), and so the metaphor can easily be understood as a reference to the value (Salt) and benefit (Light/Enlightenment) that Jews considered the Mosaic law to bring. In the Gospel of Matthew's Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is described as elaborating on the metaphor at a point immediately after the beatitudes, and immediately before the Antithesis of the Law, to which the metaphor can be seen as an introduction.

[LordMune]

This goes with evolution as well. Its true that if evolution is true then what is morality? we are all animals so why not go to orgies? Why not produce as many children as you can? why are you not able to have 10 wives? What is a lie? What is murder...survival of the fittest right?

This argument pops up all the time, and fankly, it scares me shitless.

If religion, as it seems to be to you, is the only thing keeping you from throwing all morals and ethical concepts out the window, then for fuck's sake don't stop believing.

Psycho.

[newbified]

If you're equating Athiesm with Communism because it seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization, based upon common ownership of the means of production, you're a fucking moron.

Seriously, go kill yourself and be a "martyr". For your own stupidity

It's forced athiesm, if you could even use that term.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

If you're equating Athiesm with Communism because it "seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization, based upon common ownership of the means of production", you're a fucking moron.

Seriously, go kill yourself and be a martyr.

It's forced athiesm, if you could even use that term.

Aww comon, you dont have to go and get all angry on me now, do you? Where having a friendly debate, there no need to be going there.

[newbified]

It's only a debate if you're bringing up valid arguements.

You haven't been a part of this debate for any of your recent replies.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Ive posted my sources now please post yours. Ive proven my legitimacy but thus far all youve done is throw random words at me like some babbleling fanatic.

[newbified]

What have you proven? That communists have commited atrocities and then labeled them as athiests with no sources I see saying that communists are truly athiests?

And fanatic is a very ironic word for you to use.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Yea well im not the one raging vulgarieties and saying you should go kill yourself and become a marytr now am i?

[newbified]

Yeah and I'm not the one calling your beliefs communism and saying that you've killed hundred of millions of people within the last century because I don't check my facts and have to act the high and mighty.