Murdered for being an Atheist

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Killfile made a great point but this means at the very most you can be agnostic and still be a true Communist. Is that not true? You can practice Communism and still think there might be a greater power in the universe but will never pursue it. Furthur more you have to be either agnostic or atheist while you carry out the genocide of religious groups, is this not right? Very minute difference to what i was explaining in previous posts.

I.E: If your a Communist and you practice a religion and are caught you are not a true Communist(meaning they will kill you). Furthur more, if your religious and a Communist but you try and hide your religion what would you do if you were given an order to kill a fellow religious person? And if you did kill that person are you truely taking your beliefs into actions(i.e. "faith without works is dead")

*you will most likely believe we are only animals(evolution) if your are an atheist or agnostic so the killing of another person is nothing to fear(there is no reproach for your actions, save if your country prohibits the killing of other homo sapien-sapiens)

Edit:Which in turn verifies that the Communist party(which consists of agnostics and atheists) have commited countless murders(over 110 million) in the pursuite of their intollerance of religion!

Furthur Edit: I agree with \/\/\/\/

[Ayanami]

Man, I don't think you are getting bro.

Communism is a social ideal or economic ideal. You can believe in what ever the hell you want to believe in and still be a communist. A true communism is just not happening in the world today.

Think at a fundamental level, not what people are doing in the world today to fuck things up.

And if some one believes in evolution and that we are animals, why would that make it okay for us to kill people. You really think that atheist have no morals what so ever do you?

On that note, is the only reason why humans don't do bad things is because of fear of getting reprimanded? That is what you seem to think. With out God there to push eternal damnation in your face, it seems you would just do any thing the fuck you want. Is it that hard to imagine an objective moral code existing with out the presence of God?

EDIT - Adorable little edit you have there. You really are a moran eh?

One more time for ya hoss.

Think at a fundamental level, not what people are doing in the world today to fuck things up.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Think at a fundamental level, not what people are doing in the world today to fuck things up.

I agree. My appologies for getting all zealous. However, it is sad that any person can kill another for their beliefs or for not having beliefs. I was just presured to fend for my faith when another topic of, "Why Christians are hypocrits" came up. People should stop pointing the finger at one religion for the sins of one person.

Psi wrote, "he was acting out god's plans" or something along those lines when in truth the Christian religion, as stated by Killfile, must "treat your neighbor as you would have them treat you", and "if someone would slap you on one cheek, turn and offer the other". This was the sin of one man and NO christian organization would approve of such actions.

[psi29a]

Psi wrote, "he was acting out god's plans" or something along those lines when in truth the Christian religion, as stated by Killfile, must "treat your neighbor as you would have them treat you", and "if someone would slap you on one cheek, turn and offer the other". This was the sin of one man and NO christian organization would approve of such actions.

Hey genius, if you are going to quote me, then actually quote what I typed and not what you think I typed. It is that important. Make sure to do the same for others as well.

This was the sin of one man, who's family also believed him and you guessed it, who's church was also there who believed him. They where all there, in the courtroom spewing hate at the supporters of the deceased. If that isn't organized religion, I don't know what is. His own churched supported the perpetrator.

[Killfile]

Killfile made a great point but this means at the very most you can be agnostic and still be a true Communist. Is that not true? You can practice Communism and still think there might be a greater power in the universe but will never pursue it. Furthur more you have to be either agnostic or atheist while you carry out the genocide of religious groups, is this not right? Very minute difference to what i was explaining in previous posts.

Ok... I'm going to make a distinction here because I don't think you're getting it. Rather than use "Bolshevik" and "Communist" let's use "Would-Be-Communist" and "Communist." By "Would-Be-Communist" we mean "people who don't live in a Communist society but would like to force society to become communist by whatever means necessary" and by "Communist" we mean "people who live in a Communist society."

Now to be clear, there is no such thing as a "Communist" in the world today. None. Why? Because there is no communist society to live in. We do, however, have a lot of "Would-Be-Communists." Most of Maoist China are "Would-Be-Communists." The Soviets were "would be communists."

Now these "Would-Be-Communists" are going to profess Atheism. Why? Because Marx holds that religion acts as a stupefying drug, keeping the Communist revolution from occurring.

An actual communist doesn't need to worry about that

Communism is, as I've stated before, a stage of history - not a political or religious ideology. There's nothing about living in a Communist society (not a would-be-communist society) that precludes a belief in a God.

Now if you want to equate the crimes of "would-be-communists" as those of atheists that's your call. Personally I think it's bunk -- I think you're assigning religious motive to an inherently political decision. If that's what you want to do though, you don't want to pin this on "Communists" because there aren't any Communists in the world.

I'm not getting involved in your discussion about the alleged crimes of Atheism or the persecution of Christians. What I am doing is disambiguating Communism as a theoretical stage of history from the megalomaniacal despots who co-opted that theory and used it to oppress - and in some cases murder - millions of people.

If you want to try to pin the crimes of the "Would-Be-Communists" on Atheism... well... good luck with that; just call them what they were "Bolsheviks" and "Maoists." Don't make the mistake of confusing politics and religion and don't make the mistake of giving men like Stalin and Mao more credit than they're due. They weren't in pursuit of a Communist Utopia -- they were in pursuit of power.[/quote]

[MrFelony]

"OMGODZORS!1!!!1

...

you guys need to stop taking what people say so fucking literal.

Some people here choose not to believe in god, so OMGODZORDS!1!!!1 would be an incorrect statement, perhaps you meant OMWANGZORDS!1!!!1. How literal was that?

dont worry, I loLordzored .

Its just that many times people, mainly because it is the internet, take everything at face value, when sometimes you can tell what the person most likely meant. its mainly a judgement call, i tend to give people some slack

and I cant begin to defend zodd here, he's just not getting it .

also, replace every "communist" with christian and you have the argument (within reason) i was trying to make about whether or not some people in history were really christians.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Psi wrote, "he was acting out god's plans" or something along those lines when in truth the Christian religion, as stated by Killfile, must "treat your neighbor as you would have them treat you", and "if someone would slap you on one cheek, turn and offer the other". This was the sin of one man and NO christian organization would approve of such actions.

Hey genius, if you are going to quote me, then actually quote what I typed and not what you think I typed. It is that important. Make sure to do the same for others as well.

This was the sin of one man, who's family also believed him and you guessed it, who's church was also there who believed him. They where all there, in the courtroom spewing hate at the supporters of the deceased. If that isn't organized religion, I don't know what is. His own churched supported the perpetrator.

Im not sure if they are practicing the same religion as me then. Let me quote some versus directly from the doctrine i use. This is the religion i believe. If they call themselves "Christian" and still do these things, they are christian extremeists who have radical views(altering the bible to use it toward their own radical views, while still calling themselves christian). Thusly if they were acting out Gods plan they serve another god than me and read a different text.

Exodus 20:13-15 (New International Version)
-13 "You shall not murder.

Numbers 35:16 (New International Version)
-16 " 'If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death

Numbers 35:19
The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death.

1 Kings 21:19
Say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: Have you not murdered a man and seized his property?'(he did) Then say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: In the place where dogs licked up Naboth's blood, dogs will lick up your blood—yes, yours!' "


Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander

Matthew 5:21
[ Murder ] "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'

Romans 1:29
They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

1 John 3:12
Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous.

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."



i hope this is enough references for the faith Christianity i believe in. As for that extreme group....may god be with them.

[MrFelony]

Im not sure if they are practicing the same religion as me then. Let me quote some versus directly from the doctrine i use. This is the religion i believe. If they call themselves "Christian" and still do these things, they are christian extremeists who have radical views(altering the bible to use it toward their own radical views, while still calling themselves christian). Thusly if they were acting out Gods plan they serve another god than me and read a different text.

and this is why christianity has so many different groups within it

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Im not sure if they are practicing the same religion as me then. Let me quote some versus directly from the doctrine i use. This is the religion i believe. If they call themselves "Christian" and still do these things, they are christian extremeists who have radical views(altering the bible to use it toward their own radical views, while still calling themselves christian). Thusly if they were acting out Gods plan they serve another god than me and read a different text.

and this is why christianity has so many different groups within it

Yes there are, but we all read the same Doctrine(the bible)(baptist, lutheran, prodestant, we just have different ways of presenting the bible). These people were blatently accepting that someone murdered another. This is not of any christian belief and is condemed by us.

[psi29a]

Exodus 20:13-15 (New International Version)
-13 "You shall not murder.

If you truly believe that then a good portion of the population including my family members are not Christian because they have killed human beings.

Numbers 35:16 (New International Version)
-16 " 'If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death

Yup, my family and perhaps yours are also not Christians because they too have murdered.

Numbers 35:19
The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death.

Right... doesn't exactly define a Christian, but ok.

1 Kings 21:19
Say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: Have you not murdered a man and seized his property?'(he did) Then say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: In the place where dogs licked up Naboth's blood, dogs will lick up your blood—yes, yours!' "

Same as above, it doesn't define you just the consequence of your action.

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander

Wow, you pretty nabbed a good portion of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and more with that one. If you want I can make a list for you.

Matthew 5:21
[ Murder ] "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'

Again, take anyone from the armed forces from anywhere around the world who claim to be religious and more importantly Christian.

Romans 1:29
They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

Wow, I know an number Arch Biships of the Catholic faith and those of the Baptist, Mormon, Methodists, and Lutherian that are chalk full of greed, have murdered, and have committed deceit.

1 John 3:12
Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous.

Uh huh, moral relativism. Which one was evil, and which one was not? Now explain why? Did you ever ask why Cain did the things he did? Or is all you have is an oral tradition copied down on paper then retranslated from latin, german, and various other languages?

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

I hate my brother, but I'm not a murderer. Explain that one?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

OK, so that pretty much sums up why Christians (if that is what you are claiming to be) are cooks. The original Christians, the Catholics, can be considered idolaters because of having Saints. There are certain protestants who have pictures of Jesus inside their church. We are talking about Baptists. That is idolatry. So, praying is not magic arts? Define that please? Sexually immoral? Oh please define that one. All I got to do is write a list of butt fucking priests, vicars, deacons, and bishops. Want me list those that like little boys too?

i hope this is enough references for the faith Christianity i believe in. As for that extreme group....may god be with them.

Seems you have nailed a good portion of 'extreme groups' around the world.. nailed almost all the major religions. I have the facts to back this up, you have a firm belief in something unprovable and use the teachings of oral tradition (be it collection of gospels from the mired of bibles, to your parent and church's influence) on what is 'right'.

From your own words, you have labeled a majority of those with faith as hypocrites. You have labeled my extended family as not Christian. But don't worry, you are not alone in the world. There are many like you that will cling blind faith with undeniable certainly that you are right and that we are all wrong.

So, you are given an ultimatum. You can either retract your claim that those who kill are not Christians (this includes my family and those who post in these forums from Iraq and Afghanistan), or you admit that Christians (and yes people of all faith) have done and continue to do bad things in God's name.

Please answer the question, and more importantly address Killfile's post above as well.

[Brainpiercing]

There is only one way of justifying killing someone as a soldier, and that is that you are acting in defence of yourself and your loved ones, and I personally would kill (or attempt to kill, anyway) anyone who seriously threatened my family. This justification is generally accepted in Christianity, even though christians tend to go further and pray for strength to trample on their enemies.

Modern christianity to my knowledge does not condone killing people for being evil.

However, that would make everybody going to Iraq or Afghanistan a murderer, and G.W. a mass murderer, because he ordered the attack on Iraq without being really threatened by Saddam. It makes the soldiers themselves murderers.

From a societal perspective, though, soldiers are absolutely necessary, and it could even be argued it is necessary to quell threats before they arise. Appeasement brought about the Third Reich (correction: It allowed the third Reich to bring itself about), if the allies had seen the writing on the wall and reacted in 1933, when Germany had few weapons, it would have saved a lot of lives, but it would have required an aggressive war, without the justification of being a just war. It would have been a pragmatic, aggressive conflict, with many people apparently pointlessly killed, but it could have saved millions.

Which is also the reason why I can't even say that it is fundamentally bad to seek destruction of those whom you think evil. (Definition of evil: Anyone who threatens or harms those people whom I care about. Generally I would have to say: Harms anyone, but that would include me when I go out to destroy them, so in my hypocritical way I value myself and mine more than others.)
By above definition: The guy who killed the atheist is evil, because threatening atheists threatens me and mine. The guys who killed Saddam the way they did are not, even though their motives are questionable, and neither are the US soldiers who invaded Iraq, because they are culturally closer to me than the Iraqis.

What I'm trying to say is that no moral code can be entirely without hypocrisy when you condone killing as a soldier, but also, that it is absolutely necessary to bear that hypocrisy.

[Albator]

SO basically Zodd#1Fan's church gave him a license to kill. Your church sounds very fundamentalist to me. In a way, it's the same as terrorist blowing themselves while being promised virgins and paradise.

Let me explain: I'm not going to go back to some of the "directives" that are total lunacy, just this one: Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. So since we are not supposed to take everything so damn litterally, what covers the term brother? Your blood-related brother, anybody tou take a piss with, the whole humanity? I could make a case that it covers everybody. So here is a situation: you are talking with one brother, who is an atheist. He talks smack about religion, so you think he hates you. He's an automatic murderer then right? And you know what must happend to murderer according to your church. So you can kill somebody while still fullfilling all the others requirements to assure your passage to heaven or whatever.

Tell me if it's wrong, but it's very open to any interpretation, and let the door open for extremism. For what I see, it's no wonder you are brainwashed because it's not hard to realize your own church is a nice breeding ground for extremism.

[Killfile]

A'ight, now I'm going to weigh in on the theological side of this.

First, some context:

Romans 3:10 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one
Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

There seems to be a thrust here that there is something intrinsic about being a murderer that precludes being a Christian. Hogwash. Murder, as we've all agreed, is a sin.

Now pretty much every sect of Christianity holds with Romans, seeing all sin as equally bad in the eyes of God. If I flick off my mom, I am just as deserving of an eternity in the fires of Hell as if I shot her in the head.*

Christianity holds that everyone is a sinner and that all sin is equal. From this we may extrapolate that it is the nature of Christians to be guilty of sins and that the nature of those sins doesn't matter, theologically speaking.

It is through the grace of God that we are saved - not through the comparative lesser nature of our sins. Even as he was executed, Jesus famously said "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do." Forgiveness, not just for homicide, but deicide,** demonstrates the depth of this doctrine.

Can a murderer be a Christian? Jesus thought so. He thought it important enough to ask forgiveness for the sins of his executors even as they killed him. If the measure of a Christian is the salvation promised them by their faith -- their acceptance of the New Covenant we need look no further than one final passage.

Romans 10:9 (KJV) If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

* Notwithstanding that the criminal justice system will expedite my trip there for the latter.
** Fun with Latin, "deicide" -- the murder of God

[LordMune]

Oh noes, Christian teachings are inherently paradoxical and all followers therefore ultimately hypocrites?!

Mind blown~

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Can a murderer be a Christian? Jesus thought so. He thought it important enough to ask forgiveness for the sins of his executors even as they killed him. If the measure of a Christian is the salvation promised them by their faith -- their acceptance of the New Covenant we need look no further than one final passage.

Quote:
Romans 10:9 (KJV) If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Here is the passage of Sodom and Gomorrah. This place was wicked in God's eyes, These people had no morals and what does God do in return? He kills them. The only time God has been known to kill someone/curse someone is for the person/peoples own wicked deeds(and who practice wickedness openly and are unrepentant),

Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent? You must decide, not I; so tell me what you know.

Jeremiah 5:3
O LORD, do not your eyes look for truth? You struck them, but they felt no pain; you crushed them, but they refused correction. They made their faces harder than stone and refused to repent.

No one repents of his wickedness, saying, "What have I done?" Each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle.

Jeremiah 18:8
and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

Jeremiah 31:19
After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.'

Ezekiel 18:32

For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

and the only people God has ever spoken too are the very rightous(and that was back in the Old testaments when God showed his self often). If these people claim they were acting out the will of God they are lunatics. They should repent of their sins and be forgiven. We are all human and sin. I sin and im a christian, that doesnt mean God will not forgive me though.

20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?"

26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it." (God knew there was no rightous person in that city)

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry [a] his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."

16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"

14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry [a] his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."

16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"

18 But Lot said to them, "No, my lords, please! 19 Your [c] servant has found favor in your [d] eyes, and you [e] have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."

21 He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar. [f] )

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

[LordMune]

You know you've struck gold when people start quoting the bible in an atheist/theist debate.

[psi29a]

ZoddsNo1Fan, you make an idiot of yourself.

Citing passages does not make the argument, that has to come from your own words as the passages themselves can and will be interpreted in the manor that you didn't intend. However, what you do describe does not remotely answer what was asked of you.

Again, respond to the questions directly asked of you otherwise you will lose your posting privileges. No one likes their questions being ignored.

Again I repeat, think for yourself.

Have some Christians done and continue to do bad things in God's name?

Do you believe the same thing you do? (Think about your fellow church goers are active or retired military.)

But are they still Christians none the less?

Simple yes or no answers. If you say no, then you must give a clear and concise reason why. Arguments require logic, logic depends on axioms that are true. In order to win the argument, you have prove from top to bottom that your argument is true.

The entire point here is hold accountable the hypocritical nature of theists. To justify their actions by their faith. Atheists on the other hand have no commandments to contradict and are not hypocritical in their belief of a non-deity.

Please note, that not every theist is a bad person just as not every atheist a good person. I do not imply that at all. We have to accept that we sometimes do bad things. To anyone that says differently, you are a complete lunatic.

[Skullkracker]

Well, my two cents...in more than one lines.

Have some Christians done and continue to do bad things in God's name?

Yes.
Did they do what they did becouse of what they believe in?
Some of them yes. Were they really fanatic? Mostly yes.
Is it becouse of their theology?
Yes, and I must emphasize: THEIR theology.
Some people want to bend the words of the Bible and even create their own for their twisted thinking. This doesn't mean I hereby criminate every christian who doesn't think like me. But I've even read about suicidal christian sects (which is explicitly a sin in God's eyes), and it mae me sick.
Did they use faith to justify their sins?
Yes, even if their motives were plainly against what they claimed to believe.

Do you believe the same thing you do? (Think about your fellow church goers are active or retired military.)

Well, it is hard to comment on the military topic. You want to know if someone who killed on the battlefield can be true in the eyes of God?
Never did think about that, so I cannot judge that. Could I even do that?

So as far as I can tell: You're asking whether those who do bad things in the name of God believe the same things I do?
Some of them: yes. And unfortunately they believe various other things as well that they either made up, or got otherwise deluded, or corrupted by power, wealth, blind hate, or are mental in some way.
I cannot say that faith makes you perfect. Nothing ever can on this earth. But I know many that don't hit the media, who are changed by the deeper meanings of the word of God. They reject violence, show respect and compassion toward other people, and are generally happy to be freed from the burdens of their sins. These people die for their faith (in a martyr way), not kill for it.
I'm not saying it is easy to tell the difference between two apples, but the on with a bad taste is very probnably rotten inside.

But are they still Christians none the less?

Heavy question, and I'm not sure I can tell ou a satisfactory answer, or that you can find one here. You're asking what makes a christian christian. If I could use the same words as my language uses, maybe I could highlight the question a little better.

There are those, who hear the word of God, but choose to reject it. I had a friend at church, who is now a punk, and moved away from home. I had a classmate from a catholic family, who wanted to be hardcore satanist. As it is often formulated, God has only children, but no grandchildren. Why they do it and what happened to them? I don't know, but if they come to my mind I pray for them. Faith and the practice of faith are individual decision, but is made easier by a community. You can ignore these teachings, noone can force you.
There are people, who know tha Bible, go to church, pose as a christian person, but in reality has no idea what is being preached, and doesn't really give a damn.
There are those, who have the willingness to learn more, but have doubts and uncertainties. I was definitely in that phase for a while, so I went to church regularly and paid attention.
Many people accept the forgiving love of God, and choose to clense their lives from the things that are unclean in the eyes of God. Their views change, and alter their relationships to other people...for the better. Will they be perfect people? No, but they will pursue to follow the examples set by Jesus.

Which are christian? Those, who say so? Only if you look superficially enough. The last category is christian. they are called converted believers.

On more thing in defense of Zodd: he was trying to point out what the Bible says about some of the topics, so what a christian standpoint ought to be. Don’t bash him for quoting the Bible, it’s not l’art pour l’art wisecracking.

[Eldo]

Well, my two cents...in more than one lines.

Great. I read your post, however, and not all of it made sense to me. You're right, however, it isn't worth much.

First of all, you and various others mentioned that a Christian must not only have faith, but also follow the values of Christianity. And you and various others stated that if they don't follow the values of Christianity, they are not Christians, regardless of believing and having faith in God. What psi has pointed out is, this man has killed someone in the name of God, and his religious community supported it. And since we know that 'thou shalt not kill' is one of the values, then by yours and others' definition, the Christian murderer, and in extension, the church who supports and stands by the murderer, are not Christian. See the problem here?

If you notice, psi's questions are not intended to be answered in a standalone way, but more like they are linked together.

Yes.
Did they do what they did becouse of what they believe in?
Some of them yes. Were they really fanatic? Mostly yes.
Is it becouse of their theology?
Yes, and I must emphasize: THEIR theology.
Some people want to bend the words of the Bible and even create their own for their twisted thinking. This doesn't mean I hereby criminate every christian who doesn't think like me. But I've even read about suicidal christian sects (which is explicitly a sin in God's eyes), and it mae me sick.
Did they use faith to justify their sins?
Yes, even if their motives were plainly against what they claimed to believe.

And yet, they are still Christians, nevertheless. Using their faith as a currency to contine to do bad things. However, by yours and others definition, they can't be. They believe in the Christian faith. When you say 'yes, Christians has done and continue to do bad things in God's name', you're acknowledging that they are Christians. You are capable of condemning other groups who proudly proclaim themselves as 'Christians', but don't seem to be doing that here, when you answered yes to psi's question. Looks a bit paradoxal.

You may want to answer 'no, they can't be Christians if they have done annd continue to do bad things in God's name, because it's against the values of Christianity' next time. That's for when you don't want to look like a hypocrite and contradict yourself. Unless, there are some 'bad' values in Christianity that we don't know about as atheists that are secretly tucked away and hidden like the bloodline of Christ.

Well, it is hard to comment on the military topic. You want to know if someone who killed on the battlefield can be true in the eyes of God?
Never did think about that, so I cannot judge that. Could I even do that?

It seems that you can't be judgmental in this case, but you can be judgmental when it comes to deciding that extremists Christian groups can't be Christian. If memory serves me right, previously, the lot of you Christians posted that KKK and other Christian related hate groups aren't Christians, and remain adamant about that position. You seemed to be able to make a judgement there, as you have your own definition and criterion at what a Christian must be. However, you can't decide when it comes to the military, who had broken the commandments in order to fight for the country and it's citizen's safety. These are the people who have taken lives which goes against the Christian values.

So as far as I can tell: You're asking whether those who do bad things in the name of God believe the same things I do?
Some of them: yes. And unfortunately they believe various other things as well that they either made up, or got otherwise deluded, or corrupted by power, wealth, blind hate, or are mental in some way.
I cannot say that faith makes you perfect. Nothing ever can on this earth. But I know many that don't hit the media, who are changed by the deeper meanings of the word of God. They reject violence, show respect and compassion toward other people, and are generally happy to be freed from the burdens of their sins. These people die for their faith (in a martyr way), not kill for it.
I'm not saying it is easy to tell the difference between two apples, but the on with a bad taste is very probnably rotten inside.

As far as I can tell, those who commit crimes in the name of God, who also believes the same things you do, are also Christians. Yet, as I mentioned numerous times above, you, and Zoddnos1fan pulling out quotes from the bible, has said that a murderer cannot be a Christian. It is therefore, that the individual who murdered the atheist cannot be a Christian ever again, since he has commited murder. Regardless if he had similar beliefs as you had prior to this incident, went to church regularly, prayed, it seems that he is now exiled from the Christian faith. Am I right? Or are you incapable of making a decision and leave it to God? More convenient for you to leave an answer to someone who can't speak up.

I'm not going to bother to quote the bulk of your last paragraph. I can scarcely make sense of it, nor did you answer psi's question. You have sidestepped the question with your stories in a hope that it will somehow link up to a rather obscure answer. All I can say is, if you can hear what God says, you're insane, and it is the society's view as well. It is also a legitimate defence for when you kill someone. I would, however, quote this:

On more thing in defense of Zodd: he was trying to point out what the Bible says about some of the topics, so what a christian standpoint ought to be. Don’t bash him for quoting the Bible, it’s not l’art pour l’art wisecracking.

Zoddsno1fan is a moron for quoting the bible. Simple as that. He did not even bother to address other people's points, and is rather close-minded with his own, despite the flaws we have pointed out. When you quote the bible in a debate that relies on fact, you lose automatically, especially with the hypocrisy pointed out. Christians, in my experience, are alright with hypocrisy, and ignorance is ultimately their bliss. Or they counter a hypocrisy with another hypocrisy.

Zoddsno1fan is constantly embarassing himself and is losing his credibility in the argument by not addressing or participating in the argument. It seems he is quite content with keeping himself locked in his little delirium of a world, with impenetrable walls filled with rainbows and guitars and prayer.

I guess the reason why you're stucking up for him is probably because he's Christian. Christians stick together, right? No matter how wrong he is.

Again, respond to the questions directly asked of you otherwise you will lose your posting privileges. No one likes their questions being ignored.

Wow, psi, give him a break. He has so much to read about how wrong he is. Since he can't form a valid opinion of his own, let him phone a friend.

[psi29a]

Again, respond to the questions directly asked of you otherwise you will lose your posting privileges. No one likes their questions being ignored.

Wow, psi, give him a break. He has so much to read about how wrong he is. Since he can't form a valid opinion of his own, let him phone a friend.

I'll sum it up, as this topic has come up before. ZoddsNo1Fan for example is what we call a 'True Believer'. For those unfamiliar with the term, here is it's definition.

True-believer syndrome is an expression coined by M. Lamar Keene to describe an apparent cognitive disorder characterized by believing in the reality of paranormal or supernatural events after one has been presented overwhelming evidence that the event was fraudulently staged.

No amount of logic can shatter a faith consciously based on a concept that can neither be proven false nor true.

The need to believe in phony wonders sometimes exceeds not only logic but, seemingly, even sanity.

The true-believer syndrome merits study by science. What is it that compels a person, past all reason, to believe the unbelievable. How can an otherwise sane individual become so enamored of a fantasy, an imposture, that even after it's exposed in the bright light of day he still clings to it--indeed, clings to it all the harder?

I'm not quoting the bible here, these are topics of study in not only psychology but also political science. Here it is used to great effect. If you plan on being rational and having a discussion with rational people, then don't use the irrationality to back up your statements.

[Killfile]

Hold on.... why is the military question hard to answer? Can someone be "True" in the eyes of God if they've killed on the battlefield? Sure... why not? Lemme whip out 1st Samuel here... chapter 17 reads...

45Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

46This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.

47And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give you into our hands.

48And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came, and drew nigh to meet David, that David hastened, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine.

49And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth.

50So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.

That's long so let me sum it up for you. It's David and Goliath. Goliath is a huge motherfucker with a big-ass sword and David has a primeval slingshot. David pwns up on Goliath, kills him with a rock, and then rises to become one of Israel's most legendary kings and the progenitor (father) of the bloodline that would give rise to Jesus -- the Son of God.

Yea, you can kill on the Battlefield and not piss off God -- at least insofar as Christian (and Jewish) doctrine goes.

[Brainpiercing]

Hmm, this may count if you're a Jew (or christian, or muslim, for that matter) and fighting the good fight against the unbelievers who attack your people.

Oh wait, that even condones the crusades in a way, since you are preemptively defending against the unbelievers .

By the way, a very funny presentation of these matters can be found here: http://www.thebricktestament.com

What makes this so grotesk is that they stick to their sources to the letter, and reveal what's really in the old testament.

[Killfile]

Well... yea Brainpiercing. All I'm addressing is the doctrine that allows Christians to kill in war without invoking the wrath of their God. Does Christian dogma allow a Christian to kill in battle and remain pure? Yes. Want proof? Look at David.

I'm by no means addressing any notion of ultimate moral authority or the fundamental rightness or wrongness of such killing... just the existence of and logic behind the religious justifications thereof.

Yea, the crusades were pretty fucked up. If you want to know how Christians dealt with that reality theologically look to the David and Goliath example.

That doesn't make them right - but it does explain where they're coming from.

[Artezul]

Goliath is a huge motherfucker with a big-ass sword

Keeping it simple.