Religion does more harm than good - poll

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Taken from http://www.kimel.net/why.html
"WHY DID HITLER KILL THE JEWS?
by Alexander Kimel - Holocaust Survivor

There is no rational explanation for the madness of the Final Solution. At the time of the Holocaust, the Jews were stripped of their possessions, walled in ghettos, powerless and docile. They had no power, no land, nothing. The Jews were not a danger to Hitler's rule.

On the contrary, the destruction of the Jewry, affected negatively the German war effort, destroyed valuable industrial manpower, strained the transportation system, eliminated 25% of the medical professions and crippled the German research institutions, especially in the field of atomic physics. In addition, the racial discrimination laws excluded from military service about 300,000 Jews and half-Jews. The Wehrmacht lost about fifteen divisions, that could have been fielded.

World War II was decided not only on the battlefields, but also in the scientific laboratories. The invention of radar, breaking of the secret codes, building of superior aircrafts and tanks, decided the outcome of the war. Killing of scientists, doctors or other valuable manpower in time of war, was sheer lunacy. The Final Solution was against the interest of the German people and the Nazi party , and there is only one explanation for this lunacy .... madness.

Only a sick, compulsive mind, living in his own distorted world, could conceive such a Kafkasian horror. Hitler had such a mind. Despite outward appearance of strength, he was a sick, paranoid man, full of delusions. He believed that he is the greatest German who ever lived, the greatest master builder, the greatest military leader, the greatest philosopher, a liberator of humanity. His paranoia, delusions, detachment from reality, brutality, lack of moral scruples were signs of general paresis, a sickness that is caused by the dilapidating disease of syphilis.

It can be proven, that Hitler was infected with syphilis in 1908, and thirty years later, the dormant illness entered the tertiary stage, causing inflammation of the brain, called general paresis. The fact that Hitler was in his youth infected with syphilis, is mentioned in the memoirs of many Nazi dignitaries. Speer for example, mentions that Hitler was treated by Dr. Morell, a specialist in skin and venereal diseases. Earnst Hanfstaengel talks of Hitler congenital diseases, due to syphilis infection.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hitler ordered the killing, because he believed that the Jews were his powerful enemies, bent on destroying him. For Hitler the Jews were like windmills to Don Quixote. The best proof of Hitler's sickness is his behavior at the end of the war. When the Russians were only miles away, he was holed in the bunker and spent his time shuffling non-existing divisions or ordering increased production of tanks and aircrafts, in non-existing factories. He lost completely the touch with reality. His outward appearance was pitiful; his hands trembled, and he walked scooped, with difficulty. It looked like that he suffered from Parkinson's disease, but medical experts say that Parkinsonism affects only the motor coordination. It doesn't cause detachment from reality. There is no doubt that Hitler suffered from general paresis and a powerful nation, followed a syphilitic leader, on a path of war and destruction. The insanity of one man was superimposed on a whole nation. "

My previous post still stands about Hitlers illness.

[Skullkracker]

about Hitler: you cannot blame religion as such for what a madman did for power and a new world order. It had othing to do with it IMO.

I'm not blaming religion for his action, for those are his own. He did use religion as an enabler for his actions. He did believe in God, and did believe that Jews in Germany did not honor the new covenant and there by traitors to Christianity. Because of that, he implemented his plans to expunged them from the planet.

Things happen that we don't like in God's name, it doesn't make the person committing the acts any less of a Christian. It is ok to say he was a bad Christian and that he hopefully burns in hell, but do not say he was not a Christian.

did he believe in God? who can tell? as the Bible says (don't ask me where exactly), the devils believe in God also, and they fear Him...

Yes he did believe in God, we can tell because of Mein Kempf, his letters to loved ones, and in his speeches. He was on very good terms with then Pope of the Vatican. Why do you think the Vatican never poo pooed Hitler?

about Richard: well there is still a constant battle for the Holy Land...makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Yes, because that makes his actions any better?

no, it just struck me

back on Hitler: from what I've read in histroy books, the extermination of the jews wasn't started on religious terms, but heck...I should get my act together for this thread...maybe I'll do it later

finals fucking rawk

[psi29a]

If someone cared before this could have been easily avoided, instead talking now when its too late and only cuase Etiopia wanna do something about the islamist.

Interestingly enough, Ethopia send in it's troops and declared war on the Islamists, in under two days the Islamists folded and are in retreat to Mogadishu.

And to Zodd, and my previous posts also stand as well. So he was a deranged, diseased, or degenerated Christian. That doesn't make him any less of one. No one is perfect, stop trying to strip the man of the religion he openly practiced.

While it was not the prime motivator in his actions, it certainly help to make him who he was.

[Libaax]

As a somalian from a country who has gone to war against Ethopia its wierd when they are the saviors in this case.

That they are pushing the islamist that want to make us a crazy fantacic country in only days shows once again how easy this could have been stopped before it went this far.


Instead what does the mighty and useless UN do? Complain about the only ones that did something alteast to stop the islamist cause the war might make the region unstable???


What crap is that? Somalia has had a very short history of legal goverments before the civil war and now this, it cant get worse.



Heck i should relearn arabic, i saw al jazeera last night for them somalia is a big case cause of his relativeness with arabs cause of history and religion.

I saw more in that one news show more pictures from somalia than i have seen in 13 years here in sweden....

[Kekiro]

wow, i got owned.
anyway ofc i didnt mean all the islam extremist's but they have a reason for doing what they do right? they arent just a bunch of sick mentally ill people gathered by coincidence

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Taken from http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhi ... stian.html

Dear Straight Dope:
In my numerous online debates in various chatrooms, I have learned the following: many Christians seem to think that Adolf Hitler was an atheist (or at least wasn't "Christian"). Of course I and my fellow atheists know better, as Hitler mentions his devotion to Christianity numerous times in his writings. Can you clear this up for me? Was Hitler an "honest to God" Christian, or was he simply using religion as a means of control? --Carl Stieger

Straight Dope Staff:
You are right that Hitler did mention Christianity many times in his writings. He paid Christianity a lot of lip service in Mein Kampf, and he claimed to be a Christian. But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk too much about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. You really want confusion? Randy Alley, one of my best WWII history sources, noted that the SS were supposedly forbidden to believe in God--yet the military's belt buckles said "Gott mit uns" ("God is with us")! See photo, below.

Historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hitler hated Christianity with a passion, adding that shortly after assuming power in 1933, Hitler told Hermann Rauschnig that he intended "to stamp out Christianity root and branch."

As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."

In a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order," and quoted in Freethought Today (April 1990), Hitler said:
"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .
And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.
When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."

I could probably find more speeches in which Hitler claims himself to be a Christian, but I think the point has been made. He said it. Now, what did it mean?
It seems Hitler, like many modern-day politicians, spoke out of both sides of his mouth. And when he didn't, his lackeys did. It may have been political pandering, just like many of our current politicians who invoke God's name to gain support.
Also, it seems probable that Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn't fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church.


Hitler mentioned christianty here or there as means of control nothing more. Quoted from Hitler, "If you tell a lie loud enough and long enough people will believe it". I tend to integrate Hitlers saying with the "theory" of evolution as well.

[psi29a]

Hitler mentioned christianty here or there as means of control nothing more. Quoted from Hitler, "If you tell a lie loud enough and long enough people will believe it". I tend to integrate Hitlers saying with the "theory" of evolution as well.

It would seem as though we are at an impasse and you did your homework a bit on Hitler. Grats. Problem is that straightdope is a dubious organization and has been known to be wrong and has retracted statements before. It is understandable that Christians try remove themselves from people the don't like and make them out to be non-Christians or in this case raving mad-man atheist.
source

For some reason, Catholics are not eager to claim Hitler.

Even today, when I refer to Hitler's Catholicism in conversation or a speech, it immediately becomes apparent that I have said something "not quite nice," and I am often challenged. Nontheists, I then explain, know that many modern tyrants, whether petty tyrants such as Richard Nixon, or more successful tyrants such as Hitler, have regarded themselves as exemplary Christians, an estimate their followers had no trouble accepting. Hitler's religiosity -- he was a Catholic until his death -- is often glossed over, but it is critical in understanding his motivation.

But fact outweighs truth.

Here is more food for thought: source

a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

Hitler and the Popeg) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism

Here is the thing, there is no evidence in any of his works,speeches, or otherwise that indicates he was an atheist, however we do have lots of personal stuff of his that indicates he is indeed Catholic.

At the head of our [National Socialist] program there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will—not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Nuremberg, September 6, 1938.

May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.

- Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Berlin, February 1, 1933.

The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly be passed by a human being. That should be left to God.

- Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939.

This play directly into the topic at hand because religion is still used for not and causing of strife. However, if you want to talk about Evolution use the other thread, it has no place here. You opinion of it matters not a wit in this thread.

[Albator]

This is seriously off-topic, but since nobody wants to let go of the bone, I'll try to summarize what's been posted here.

Posters claims that Hitler wasn't a christian, some think he was. Again you must check facts before going with your beliefs: he claimed he was a christian and justified a lot of his acts in the name of god.

Now, it seems very likely that (like a lot of politicians, mind you) he was just using the name of god and his religious affiliation to justify his acts, or to make it more appealing to the masses (hum, remind me of somebody). Personally, I don't believe that any person that comes to such powers are total idiots, they must have a certain craftiness. And they know what make masses tick.

Still, one can argue that if religion wasn't such a big deal, Hitler would have been short of one argument, and the people blindly following (more impostantly, electing) him because of that could have fight against him instead. At the end, even if religion is not designed to cause harm, it did because of this one person.

[FightClub]

I believe that religion has purpose, that when used for what it's meant to be it improves people. Utilizing a religion to achieve your own selflish means is wrong, but it in no way means that religion causes more harm than good, just that those who falsely use it cause more harm than good. I myself believe in a higher power, I don't follow a particular religion, but I would be stupid to consider many things I've seen in my own life to be coincidence. Religion for me is a set of morals, and ethic code to set upon the youth, to aid with their upbringing, nothing more. When used properly it can have positive results, when used for the opposite it can do just the opposite take like, cause wars. That said I don't really see a purpose for this thread, and I think the poll is entirely too narrow to encompass opinion.

[Albator]

I follow you. However, you have to look at the end result, not only at the believer level. The end result is that, for whatever reason, a lot of horrible crimes are commited in name of religion.

You can argue all you want, the end result is there. So to say that there is "no way" that it causes more harm is a hasty conclusion.

I understand that religion shouldn't be used in such ways. However, it is, and that's reality. It is used, more than often, as a tool for atrocities, wars, lies. So it doesn't matter who does what or why, you have to ask if sometimes we wouldn't be better without it. It's a legitimate question.

[psi29a]

Sorry for the Hitler thing, it was mentioned by MrFelony and I felt like correcting that point considering that it discussed at length in Western Civ classes in Colleges and Universities around the world. Zodd felt like he needed to argue that, and that is fine perhaps it should go into another thread if he wishes to discuss it further.

The intent of the thread is to explore organized religion's impact on the world. Personal belief is not in question, but the motivation for it's manipulation is. How often is it wielded as a tool for justifying crimes against humanity?

[FightClub]

The intent of the thread is to explore organized religion's impact on the world. Personal belief is not in question, but the motivation for it's manipulation is. How often is it wielded as a tool for justifying crimes against humanity?

I follow you. However, you have to look at the end result, not only at the believer level. The end result is that, for whatever reason, a lot of horrible crimes are commited in name of religion.

You can argue all you want, the end result is there. So to say that there is "no way" that it causes more harm is a hasty conclusion.

I understand that religion shouldn't be used in such ways. However, it is, and that's reality. It is used, more than often, as a tool for atrocities, wars, lies. So it doesn't matter who does what or why, you have to ask if sometimes we wouldn't be better without it. It's a legitimate question.

It's like arguing for possessing firearms in your house, certainly there are a lot more people that abuse it then there are those that use it to defend themselves, but it still saves lives. And as long as it continues to save lives, I see reasoning behind it. Same with religion, if religion were only used for political gains, reason to create wars to boost economy whatever, fine. But a lot of people find strength in religion, reason to live, and move on. I've personally met quite a few people, that without religion, would most likely be dead. End point, sure a lot of things can be misused, and are misused, but what good they do outweighs it.

Religion brings hope, and faith, you take away that from people what do you leave them with? The brutalities of life really aren't that comforting, science really isn't all that appealing. I'd personally rather be ignorant and happy, than knowledgable and alone.

[psi29a]

For libaax:

Somali government troops backed by Ethiopian forces rolled into Mogadishu without firing a shot Thursday, a striking gain in its bid to recapture the country from an Islamic movement that had once seemed nearly invincible.

Off the coast, Yemeni authorities opened fire on boats filled with refugees fleeing the fighting, and at least 17 people drowned in the Gulf of Aden when one vessels capsized, the United Nations refugee agency said Thursday. About 140 people were missing, the Geneva-based agency said.

Hours before the troops entered the capital, the Islamic militants fled Mogadishu, pledging to make a last stand in southern Somalia.

Looks like they fled from Mogadishu too and are retreating. My only hope is that Somalia retains it's independence and perhaps stronger ties to Ethiopia are created. I'm not entirely sure of their history however, any light you can add to the subject would be great.

Religion brings hope, and faith, you take away that from people what do you leave them with? The brutalities of life really aren't that comforting, science really isn't all that appealing. I'd personally rather be ignorant and happy, than knowledgable and alone.

I'm quite comfortable and very happy with my life stance. As are millions of others. Now that we don't have to worry about things like the Black Death (which was a prime motivator of using faith as a protector in Europe), through reason we know how to deal with Polio and various other diseases for examples.

I personally accept that we only live once, and we have to make the best of our lives. We have to work hard to better ourselves and those around us. Those who are poor, diseased, etc need help to achieve that of which we enjoy. Faith gives these people hope, I accept that too. However through reasoning and not faith we can help cure people of afflictions where laying of hands has failed.

Hope for me (irrationally or not) is that my children will do better than I, and that I see an ever increasing quality of life for everyone. Belief to me is irrelevant, yet I still have a firm grounding into what is acceptable behavior in society. Helping others (IMO) is the best way of helping yourself, I don't need faith to understand that.

[Oro]

Christianty is the root of all evil, rest of the religions are ok.

[psi29a]

Christianty is the root of all evil, rest of the religions are ok.

Care to back that up, or is that an opinion?

[Libaax]

For libaax:

Somali government troops backed by Ethiopian forces rolled into Mogadishu without firing a shot Thursday, a striking gain in its bid to recapture the country from an Islamic movement that had once seemed nearly invincible.

Off the coast, Yemeni authorities opened fire on boats filled with refugees fleeing the fighting, and at least 17 people drowned in the Gulf of Aden when one vessels capsized, the United Nations refugee agency said Thursday. About 140 people were missing, the Geneva-based agency said.

Hours before the troops entered the capital, the Islamic militants fled Mogadishu, pledging to make a last stand in southern Somalia.

Looks like they fled from Mogadishu too and are retreating. My only hope is that Somalia retains it's independence and perhaps stronger ties to Ethiopia are created. I'm not entirely sure of their history however, any light you can add to the subject would be great.

Religion brings hope, and faith, you take away that from people what do you leave them with? The brutalities of life really aren't that comforting, science really isn't all that appealing. I'd personally rather be ignorant and happy, than knowledgable and alone.

I'm quite comfortable and very happy with my life stance. As are millions of others. Now that we don't have to worry about things like the Black Death (which was a prime motivator of using faith as a protector in Europe), through reason we know how to deal with Polio and various other diseases for examples.

I personally accept that we only live once, and we have to make the best of our lives. We have to work hard to better ourselves and those around us. Those who are poor, diseased, etc need help to achieve that of which we enjoy. Faith gives these people hope, I accept that too. However through reasoning and not faith we can help cure people of afflictions where laying of hands has failed.

Hope for me (irrationally or not) is that my children will do better than I, and that I see an ever increasing quality of life for everyone. Belief to me is irrelevant, yet I still have a firm grounding into what is acceptable behavior in society. Helping others (IMO) is the best way of helping yourself, I don't need faith to understand that.

Sadly the civil war started when i was 8 and was in only second class when we fled from the country. I dont know much about our history other than stuff my parent has told me.

I know that there was a war fought about Ogaden in 1976-1977 which is a part of Ethitopia that belonged to Somalia before the colonisers gave it away.

I have been in Ogaden when we fled the war, most of the people there are somalies. I also know that the problems beteween the countries has been about Ogaden.

Its like Cyprus beteween Turks and Greecs.



I can tell you this that there is no chance people will let ethiopia control somalia cause of the history beteween the two countries.




For now i am glad for thier help cause these islamic terrorist is a huge threat to peace and stability of somalia. Plus there are many other islamic terrorists there that has come to help, it will be good to get rid of them before the region becomes like middle east. People killing eacother for religon or worse a certain super power will come and get rid of the islamist just like Afganistan.

[Oro]

Christianty is the root of all evil, rest of the religions are ok.

Care to back that up, or is that an opinion?

an opinion,maybe...

In the 4th century after Constantine converted to Christianity and made it the state religion,thousands of people who didn't follow Christianity or Christians of differect sect were killed,no?Crusades hunreds of thousands of Muslims and jews were killed,no?Christian reconquest of spain and sicily led to the deaths of millions of muslims and jews,no?Spanish inquisition killed thousands,no?Killing of millions of native americans cause they were pagans,no?enslaving black people?Nazi?KKK?

If you look at history nearly all of the cirmes against humanity are cause by Christians,No other religion even comes close to what Christianity has achieved in last 1700 years and this is why its at the top right now.

[psi29a]

Christianty is the root of all evil, rest of the religions are ok.

Care to back that up, or is that an opinion?

If you look at history nearly all of the cirmes against humanity are cause by Christians,No other religion even comes close to what Christianity has achieved in last 1700 years and this is why its at the top right now.

Well, you missed a few facts. Look at the Greeks for example. The Gods demanded sacrifices, entire nation-states slaughtered in their name. Let us look toward other non Christian crimes against humanity. To say it is all Christian's fault and that they are the root of all evil is interesting, considering the root goes far far back further than Jesus being born.

I don't discount what you say in supporting your opinion, but I do find it unlikely that Christianity is the root of all evil in the world.

Say for example we define someone or some group as being evil, would you say that they are evil because they are 'evil and have killed people'? How do you define evil? Now, when you do finally define evil, does it apply to a person or group of people before Jesus arrived on the scene?

Have they done awful things, yes, but certainly not the root of all that is evil in the world.

Interestingly enough, just recently the Church of the Nativity in Jerusalem have banned PM Blair and President Bush from the church, forever for crimes against humanity. Being banned from the birthplace of the guy who founded Christianity is pretty damn ironic.

[Skullkracker]

You're dubbing a whole religion evil there Oro!
So hold your horses for a second and think

Christianity is supposed to be about following the example of Christ, accepting Him as your savior, repent your sins, and obeying the words of God written in the Bible (in a reasonable sense of course).

I can see no evil so far.

Where is the problem then?
Maybe it's been brought up multiple times, but it is worth considering.

There's something about human nature. Things one can not tackle easily. Can be called original sin, or whatever, but the fact is:there have always been people who had an enormous lust for power, and justified their acts by whatever cause they have seen fit. There have always been battles for territory or whatever.

I don't know of any commandment in the Bible that encourages this type of behavior, or slave trade for that matter.

PS:
KKK? Please! A cross and the word "god" won't make you a christian. Blind hatred doesn't make you a christian. Your bare words won't make you a christian, your acts will.

[Eldo]

What religion has done is taken some personal opinions and replaced that with religious beliefs. It has been my own opinion that religion and religious beliefs are hindering the progress of science, such as controversal studies like stem cell research or 'playing god', as people name it. Religion has always been a tool to draw others to shed blood in the name of his or others' god, or dupe people into buying into their agenda. Looking at this historically, you have the crusades, people went to war because of different beliefs, also genocide and 'submit or die' attitude to the conversion of Christianity from different faiths. There has been a rich history in which Christianity has caused countless bloodshed, burning witches, condemning people to be possessed by the devil and kill them in a mock trial either way. These points has been noted in previous posts, I do not feel the need to reiterate or rehash them again. Also, historically, scientific advancements has been hindered or halted entirely because the clergy thought it challenged the faith of God, not only their own, but the people, and they were afraid of that. It challenged the power of the church, and the people being mindless drones, were being educated. People or countries that were developing thoughts of their own and challenged the authority of the church were being excommunicated by the church. However, people began to think for themselves, and the church eventually lost influence over those mindless drones. It's mighty lucky that the bible doesn't have anything stating the world is flat, or the Sun, stars and planets rotate around the Earth, which was the popular belief back in those times. Or did they edit that out or retcon in out of existence eventually in the Newest Testament?

Hitler used Christianity as his breeding ground for hatred to recruit bigots into the nazi party. It matters little if he was a dedicated Christian or not, he was ultimately, a politician. He needed the votes and support. Would he have mustered that amount of power if he was a Buddhist? Or Muslim? Nobody would have cared. Politicians in America use God in their speech, Christianity wins votes for them because of its popularity, regardless of personal faith or not. Atheists would consider taking up religion for the sake of their political career. Hitler wanted to target the Jews, and he drew bigotry and close-mindedness because of varying degrees and 'rivalries' in the two beliefs. His legacy of hatred and bigotry continues today with KKK. It isn't the acts that define a Christian, it is the person's belief in the religion. I could still be a Christian and not be a virgin when I get married, that would only make me hypocrite. A Christian who hates Jews is still considered a Christian, unless it's supposed to be that way. It's amusing how Christians are quick to condemn or categorise someone out of the group and usher them away from their community. That's like saying Mao was never Chinese.

I've been targeting Christianity in my above two paragraphs, and I don't intend to sorely target that particular faith. What religion has done is created belief barriers amongst other people. For example, a Christian cannot marry an atheist, or a Jew cannot marry a Catholic, because of conflicting religious beliefs. People, ultimately, want guidance, whether the object of their desires exist or not, it's comforting for them to have and place faith in something they believe in, which is in the scope bigger than us but doesn't give jack shit about the little people. Other people wants to belief there is something bigger than life. It's ultimately their own choice, and people may find comfort in whatever they seek; be it faith, charity, redemption or others.

It's real late when I'm typing this, and I may add to my opinions later on after I get some sleep or finished reading some other posts.

[psi29a]

KKK? Please! A cross and the word "god" won't make you a christian. Blind hatred doesn't make you a christian. Your bare words won't make you a christian, your acts will.

That is amazing you bring that up. Ask any Klan member, and they will tell you they are Christian. We have to accept the fact that we have people of faith that do very bad things. KKK, Hilter, Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Knights Templar, and etc. You may denounce them, but they won't renounce their faith.

[Eldo]

KKK? Please! A cross and the word "god" won't make you a christian. Blind hatred doesn't make you a christian. Your bare words won't make you a christian, your acts will.

That is amazing you bring that up. Ask any Klan member, and they will tell you they are Christian. We have to accept the fact that we have people of faith that do very bad things. KKK, Hilter, Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Knights Templar, and etc. You may denounce them, but they won't renounce their faith.

Yep, like I said, acts don't define the religion, the belief does. Since their god doesn't play an regulatory role in their life, they just keep on wronging the right and not realise it.

[Skullkracker]

that is exactly what makes them something else from what they claim to be

If I got a katana, and claimed to be a modern day samurai without deeper knowledge about the philosophy and any fighting skills, would that make me a samurai in your eyes? Probably not. Would that make me a samurai in my own mind? If I was disturbed enough…

The word „christian” means follower of Christ, so don’t be so generous with it’s usage.

I think you all make a difference between muslims and terrorists, at least I do. This is the same case, only the names are different. Think about it.

[Albator]

Then think about this: why do people who means harm or are after power need a religious affiliation?

You ask people to think, but you seems to discard pretty easily the fact that, even that if they don't act as "good believers", they still claim they are. Why do they need this?

The concept of "good believer" and "bad believer" is totally based on perception, and depending on what side you are, the other side will always be the bad believers. This reasoning is based on faith, beliefs, so they are irreconciliable.

You ask us to think like a "good believer", from your point of view. I don't want to be on either side, I just wonder if getting rid of religion would allow people to live with each other without quarrels. Regardless of what "side".

[psi29a]

that is exactly what makes them something else from what they claim to be

If I got a katana, and claimed to be a modern day samurai without deeper knowledge about the philosophy and any fighting skills, would that make me a samurai in your eyes? Probably not. Would that make me a samurai in my own mind? If I was disturbed enough…

The word „christian” means follower of Christ, so don’t be so generous with it’s usage.

I think you all make a difference between muslims and terrorists, at least I do. This is the same case, only the names are different. Think about it.

Easily enough, KKK are believers just as much as you seem to be. There isn't a litmus test for being a Christian other than believing that through Jesus is heaven. If you go much more beyond that, then you alienate the Methodists, Baptists, Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and etc. because they have different interpretation of events and meanings in scripture. Are you saying to me that they have it wrong too?

I chatted my boss up about this he claims that to be a true Christian you have to live by the 10 commandments. I asked him if he worked on Saturday to which he replied yes to. That means he isn't a Christian because 1 of the commandments is to keep the sabbath holy. He conceded the point, and said it was a very difficult question.

If someone says they are Christian, then they are, unless you have some sort of litmus test that everyone can agree on that proves otherwise. If you move beyond Jesus, then I guarantee you that a good portion the USA say they are Christian (regardless of branch) and we would be back to square one.

Let us take it back to Sunni and Shia (forgive me if I get it wrong, sometimes its written Shite), the two main groups that practice Islam. One considers the other to be absolutely and unforgivably wrong. I can let those who know more fill in the blanks. Is one more right than the other? What qualifies as a good Muslim?

About Jewish communities, there are typically just Jews, but there is a sub-sect of Ultra Orthodox Jews that believe that Christians are wrong, Islam has it wrong, and modern Jews have it wrong.

Who is wrong when it comes to belief? Can you prove it either way? How can you prove someone not a Muslim, Jew, or Christian they profess to be?

We as a people, culture, and civilization have to accept that there are those among us that are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc that will do things that we as human beings think are wrong.