Religion does more harm than good - poll

[Starlore]

I was raised in a Christian family, of which some of my uncles are Reverends, Preachers, whatevers. They gave me a substantial amount of headaches in my life for not living my life 1000% to what they construed as being by the "word of God".

Their constant berating of me for having questions in my youth did little to build a positive image in my eyes as far as Religion goes (especially seeing exactly how much hypocrisy was going on behind those facades). Needless to say I had an innate HATRED of religion as a whole & especially Christianity for many years. Not the case now; as I've grown I've come to understand the role of 'religion' as far as human politics go. Being a spiritual person however, I can understand the concept of blind faith yet I don't condone it nor do I practice it.

I've been thru many encounters w/"religious" folks that try to use their bible quoting ability as some form of vanity in which to hold over another as 'wisdom' & authority...yet it wasn't too difficult I noticed, to counter their rants using nothing more than life experience & my own personal, spiritual perception of the passages they spewed.

I think it's interesting, how so many can vomit quotes w/out having any sense of what reading between the lines is, or how to decipher the relevance from those quotes in which to integrate into everyday life. If you ask them what they 'feel' those passages are meant to get across to people, they're dumbfounded or simply prattle off the literal/word for word representation of it. Ugh.

I don't have enough faith in humanity to believe that the majority will ever recognize that the truth of God/Buddha/Allah/etc's words, lie within ourselves & (imo) we are meant to find it & live by it as individuals (true to our own relationship w/God), rather than en masse. I believe Religious texts are handed down as a guide towards locating these truths. But when people take the text more seriously than the inward journey to discover the answers, is when they start heading in the direction of delusion. This can be said for any path being followed.

Humans are lazy fuckers & usually will take the easy route as opposed to making an effort or struggling a bit to discover the best suited path. Similarly, we will always be so shittily vain as to believe our own ideals to be more important than that of another.

In the end, perspective wins--so of course there are those so lost in their subconcious delusion of using the Forces that be, as scapegoats that they actually believe that 'God'/Allah/Buddha/The Devil has told them to do the evils they enact in life. Perspective will continue to win, unless God reaches thru the clouds & smacks the unholy shit out of people, of course. Even then, they usually miss the message.

The word of man is only ever as good as a lie that hasn't been called out yet.

Until people can truly appreciate (w/in themselves) the meaning behind the words of their God, Religion will only ever be political & ignorance along w/its co-conspirator, delusion will reign supreme.

This being the case, I'd have to agree that in some ways we'd be better off if there were no Religions at all considering that it tends to be used more for negative influence than for positive. Humanity isn't mature enough to be responsible w/such extensive liberties.

[Skullkracker]

Then think about this: why do people who means harm or are after power need a religious affiliation?

Becouse they need something to justify their acts. Everyone lloks for a way to justify themselves, even if they are not up to something openly detrimental.

You ask people to think, but you seems to discard pretty easily the fact that, even that if they don't act as "good believers", they still claim they are. Why do they need this?

Noone really needs it. Every philosophy and religion has extremists. The thing is, that there are some objective measures to judge "bad believers".

You ask us to think like a "good believer", from your point of view. I don't want to be on either side, I just wonder if getting rid of religion would allow people to live with each other without quarrels. Regardless of what "side".

I just ask you not to jump into unreasonable conclusions about "so called christians".

Interesting, that you think that people could live in peace if they had no religion at all. Do you honestly think, that there are no other conflicts among groups of people? How many reasons are there to jump at eachother's throats? Sex, money, political power, status? Believe me, I know enough about social sciences to approve that éeft without the ethical constraints that is just one of the things that religion provides humanity would rapidly plunge into total chaos. The planet would already be a dump I suppose, but this is just an opinion.

To psi: there are some basic common concepts among christians, that make it quite obvious which groups are considered sects, or dangerous groups decieveing others by mimicing christianity for that matter.

As for the question of Saturday, I usually study then too. And the priests spend quite a lot of time with their work on weekends as well.
So does this make people bad? Hardly. As Jesus claimed: Saturday is for man, and not the other way around. Don’t make this an equal issue to manslaughter.

To go back to the original question: religion plays an important role in the lives of many many people, no matter what their theology is. Every civilization has one…or more. It doesn’t pop into my mind who said that „there is a God-shaped hole in the soul of man, and nothing else can fill that”. Although this was said in a christian context, it is still true.
On the other hand: few thing is good when taken to the extreme. What is there on this Earth, that cannot be used as a tool of deciept or desturction, no matter how sacred it is?
Even with religion gone, the problem would remain, and would even get worse.

[Albator]

Fair enough. People would find other pretexts. However, how much could they get away with if they didn't cover with religion? How many people would support them if they didn't blindly follow somebody out of faith? Do you think Bush would have been elected if he didn't claim to be a true christian? Are his acts those of a christian?

I must point that I never said that people would live in perfect harmony without it, I just said that the question was worth asking.

You say there is objective measures to know if somebody is a true believer is or not. If this measures are based on personal appreciations, then it's not objective.

Also, you can't have a double standart, that it's OK to be flexible on some things when it's not bad, then being inflexible on others things. If one thing can be flexible, than everything should be. This is the hypocrisy that has been described before, and that makes it that much harder to criticize people.

Now I understand what you are trying to say. That there should be a reasonable middle ground, where reason and common sense should prevail. Slaughter and working on saturday are hardly the same thing. However, how do you get that point accross when your interlocutor is wrapped in faith? There's no difference for him.

[Eldo]

Don't be an idiot, Skullkracker. People's belief in God makes them a Christian. A priest who molests children is nevertheless, still considered Christian, although their priesthood will be in question. Mel Gibson is still a Christian even though he's anti-Semetic. I'm sure racism and rape doesn't play a part in the bible or whatever Christianity preaches. As Albator mentioned about objective measures, you don't justify who is a Christian or not; you are not God.

Interesting, that you think that people could live in peace if they had no religion at all. Do you honestly think, that there are no other conflicts among groups of people? How many reasons are there to jump at eachother's throats? Sex, money, political power, status? Believe me, I know enough about social sciences to approve that éeft without the ethical constraints that is just one of the things that religion provides humanity would rapidly plunge into total chaos. The planet would already be a dump I suppose, but this is just an opinion.

The hatred within humanity is apparent even without the need of religion. However, people scapegoat religion to preach their words of hate. They use religion as a recruiting drive. They can say stuff like, 'God hates blacks, Jews, and coloured people', and the dumbshits will join regardless. As personal opinions do not have the same effect in preaching like religion, it will have a minimised effect, in my opinion. You strip away religion from a bigoted religious zealot, you are only left with a bigot. And don't forget, it could be said that the Church was great at dividing social classes, historically and being independently wealthy while others are poor. It stemmed from religion.

[Skullkracker]

neither are you

Well, I don't want to keep repeating my arguments, so I won't.
It's past midnight, and I'm kinda drowsy now, so I'll sleep on the discussion.

I'll just make my stand here: if the basic theology of KKK is so much in opposition to the fundaments of christianity, then it cannot possibly be part of it, no matter how much they or you would like to connect the two.
I'll try to make it more visual:
As the old saying goes: a good tree cannot possibly bear bad fruit.
The basic ideas of christianity are respect to God, accepting Jesus christ as your savior, and following the example he set us with his life, altruism, love and respect toward fellow humans. The roots are good.
People are not perfect, and they won't be, but they are capable of good, and I know many who are pursuing to build their life on the practice of their faith. And practice means acting.
To cut this short, since KKK is bearing a rotten fruit, it definitely doesn't stem from the same tree.
To keep being metaphorical: the most important weapon of Satan has been deceit from ancient times. Most people are easily fooled, turn into a mindless mob. Not everyone is a university graduate.
Don't be fooled by wolves in lamb's clothing (and most importantly, don't be offended by what I said).

Good night.

[psi29a]

Skullcracker: sects, branches, etc are the same thing. Different interpretations of what Christianity is all about. Look no further than Mormons. They are nice, wholesome people, they are a general delight be around in my experience but to you they are not Christians by your own definitions. However, they are Christians none the less.

I just find it utterly amazing that you can claim people as not Christians, Muslims, Jewish because they don't practice the same exact thing you do. I guess we now know why we kept seeing splits in the Church such as Luther and the Vatican, Shia and Sunni. Yet are they not Christians and Muslims?

So Hilter was Catholic, his actions make him a pretty shitty Catholic, but one none the less. Members of the KKK, truly believe that salvation is had through Jesus. Their actions are pretty damn shitty too, but they are still Christian. Does this mean they get to heaven, probably not. Seems you have to walk a pretty tight-rope to get eternal salvation. There are such things as bad Christians.

Pay attention the next time you at church. Keep track of what is talked about, if you find out that they don't talk about the old testimate anymore and instead only keep to the new testimate, can you still call yourself a Christian?

My co-worker left his church in disgust because they refused to do any sermons with regard to the old testimate. He didn't consider them to be real Christians. Is he right?

[MrFelony]

I've been on vacation so i just came back to a lot of arguements.

If I were to say I'm black, I'd be lying. If i were a member of the KKK, or Hitler and said I was christian, I'd be lying as well. being a christian and a follower of christ is a lot different than claiming to be a christian and not following the beliefs of christ. just because one claims something doesnt make them that. I think that if someone goes to hell then they werent really a christian, and I'm pretty sure we know where most KKK members and Hitler went

as for the hitler thing, I was just repeating what i heard on television, which i believe i mentioned. I did some research as well and I agree that its a debate for another topic, though I argee with one of the debaters that Hitler most likely used religion as a tool. this lends to the side of debate that christianity does harm. you can measure all the harm that christianity does, but I dont recall any movement to record all the good that christianity has done. I think its an unproductive debate since it seems like a pure debate to try and get rid of religion what so ever, which I am against .

[Albator]

If you are black and lie about it, it's easy to verify. How do you suggest we verify that one is a religious person or not?

Like we are going to be able to get rid of religion, he.

I don't think that you read everything, because most of the points you are trying to make have already been answered.

[psi29a]

I dare you to tell any member of the Klan they are not Christian. They will punch you in the face for insulting them.

Let me tell you how this works from practical experience as well as from a sociological one, you cannot argue with someone who is a 'believer'. They will argue the logic of illogic and their faith comes before anything else.

No amount of evidence to the contrary will persuade this individual.

I dare anyone to make a Litmus test for what defines a Christian. Here is a list of people that claim to be Christian that you can apply this test to.

President GW Bush
Adolf Hilter
Robert Guiscard
Pope Gregory VII
King Louis VII
Conrad III
Philip II of France
Richard I of England (Lionheart)
Pope Innocent III
Ivan Payne
Vincent Mercer
Ronald Bennett
Brendan Smyth
Barry Ryan
Ferdinand and Isabella
Francisco Jiménez de Cisneros

Each and everyone will tell you they are Christian, and some on this very list will kill you just questioning it in the first place. These people have done very bad things to humanity in the name of religion. We have to accept that, and constantly remind ourselves of it so we don't repeat it ourselves.

Take for example 'Thou salt not kill.' That is VERY straightforward. Yet those in our armed forces are trained to kill. My family for example is comprised of USMC spanning 3 generations, some are Baptists, Methodists, and Lutherans. Are you telling me that they are not Christian either because they don't keep the Sabbath holy, they do kill or at least have killed, and they take the Lords name in vain while doing it?

So I pass the torch to you, define what a Christian is and look at yourself in the mirror to see if you measure up. Can you measure, nay... judge another to be or not to be a Christian?

When it comes to faith, at least in religion... you can neither prove nor disprove it, you just have to accept it at face value. When someone says they are Christian, you can't deny them that but you can at least make a value statement about if you think they really going to be saved or not.

[EvilDmitri]

Stumbled onto this site from a link in the sig of a guy on another message board.. it is one of the saddest things i think i've ever seen.

http://shop5.gospelcom.net/epages/AIGUS ... t/30-9-178

Profiteering off faith, promoting unproven and downright false ideas, teaching people - children even i'm sure ("especially well suited for high school students") such silly things. Everything this site sells is a prime example of religon's effect.
Note the related products:

Darwin’s Demise (Softcover)
Darwinism is a fraudulent faith masquerading as science; creationists have solid evidence to support their claims.

7 Modern-Day Scientists: Who Oppose Evolution and "Millions of Years" (25-pack)
Dispels the common myth that a bias to evolution and long ages is the only "scientific" option.

[MrFelony]

EDIT: I'm just going to put this here because Psi, I do recognize that some people are just christians who are very poor at practicing it, however there are some who are wolves in a sheep clothing, or people who don't know what they are so they just say christian.

have you seen that show "black and white" (i think that's its name)? the one where they take a family and "change" their race. well what if i went around all day dressed up like that pretending to be black. more and more people would believe me. thats what a lot of people do. just because you claim to be something it doesn't mean you are. and no albator i didn't read everything, I skimmed most of it, and i just wanted to address what I brought up, since i figure i have that right .

Psi, you know its a bullshit tactic to put it on my shoulders to make a litmus test of christianity, however its pretty easy. does said person believe that jesus christ is our savior and do they actively attempt to follow the teachings of christ? now sure, some people may be misguided or just christians who have sinned, but some people either 1) don't believe christ is our saviour or 2) actively follow or try to follow christ's teachings. (don't start with the whole "but what are the correct teachings of christ blah blah blah argument, I already know that predicament).

how can one be a christian if they don't actively try to follow in christ's path? A person can claim to be a christian but if they purposefully stray from christ's teaching and make no attempt for redemption, are they really a christian? it seems pretty obvious to me. in regard to members of the military, they can still seek forgiveness for their actions.

this stuff is a huge quagmire to debate. and you don't have to tell me you can't argue with a believer, I'm not 12 years old . and even though you sound like a pretentious preacher, you have a point, its not my place to judge people. and if i looked myself in the mirror...I know what i'll see. this is just such a hard topic to debate cause it's all based on a lot of shit we don't know about people and what they're thinking.


EDIT: also ablator, I agree that there MAY be the possibility that some things couldn't be disguised under the guise of religion, but the points moot cause we'll never know.

I guess I've been avoiding this cause you guys don't seem to respond well the faith based arguments, but I agree with Skully

the most important weapon of Satan has been deceit from ancient times. Most people are easily fooled, turn into a mindless mob. Not everyone is a university graduate.
Don't be fooled by wolves in lamb's clothing (and most importantly, don't be offended by what I said).

Satan can disguise his actions under the guise of "christians." thats why I argue that some people aren't christians but tools of satan. I haven't really been wanting to argue that but I decided i'd put it out there.

[EvilDmitri]

maybe here's a better question. if I claim to be a democrat, but i always vote republican, what am I?

Not sure what I would call that exactly, but there are lots of people my age who do it.

Being a Democrat is a fashionable fad thing for American teens. If you aren't one, you will be insulted and left out by kids who get their political views from Hollywood and the news (as well as their friends) instead of from their own thoughts. I'm neither Democrat nor Republican, but i've lied around liberal girls because they wouldn't talk to me if I did'nt believe Bush was the next Hitler. Claiming to be a Democrat, for a teen, will make him or her friends. Claiming to be a Republican just gets them insulted and left out, so they change their views to blend in with band wagon liberalism, when really some might have other thoughts, thoughts of their own. I've run into the issue myself many times. You simply can't have a rational arguement against someone who feels Bush is as bad as Hitler. It's an absurd, extremist view - no better than religous extremism. Is he a bad president? Sure. Would Kerry be any better? Probably not. Are we fucked no matter who we elect? Absolutely! But childishly asserting that the president is in any way close to Hitler is just as bad as saying that non-believers of some religon are the devil. The two party system fucks up our country, I don't deny that - but changing or bolstering one's political convictions on the premise that it is more socially acceptable to do so is just silly.

Such things happen in religon. Children in close families adhere to Christian or other religous philosophies simply because their family does and not doing so would make them an outsider of sorts. The acceptance and group mentality which religon breeds feels wonderful, i'm sure. Things which feel good aren't always good for you however. Likening religon to a virus might be valid, but I like to think of it as a drug, fed to children in copious amounts by well meaning parents who want to raise "good" kids.

[Albator]

I don't know why you felt this urge to argue about Hitler vs Bush, I don't see where this stuff came up. I just have to said that people are stupid if they don't want to talk to you unless you agree with them. I guess it's not the girl's brain you were after.

Felony, the real problem is: faith-based argument are based on faith. Faith is based on...faith. Faith is unverifiable. Hence anything faith-based has to be taken on face value. You must know how dangerous that can be. As Psi said, by your very thought process you deny to others the right to believe like you. But more importantly, you discriminate against anybody else that doesn't believe the same way you do. I don't see how this is BS tactic. It's very logical.

It just seems a lot less risky, and much more logical, to be open to arguments that have a base in reality. Other type of arguments are at best opinions, which are hard to debate or sustain. The faith of believers is real, as is the reasons for why they believe in it. However, the object of this faith has no tangible reality.

But we really strayed from the purpose of this thread.

[MrFelony]

So I pass the torch to you, define what a Christian is and look at yourself in the mirror to see if you measure up. Can you measure, nay... judge another to be or not to be a Christian?

this is what i thought was BS mostly because it pissed me off (very mature i know). Psi, not that you purposefully try come off like this, but you often times come off as demeaning or pretentious. you make a point, but the way you word it irks me. inpart beacuse you also make a good point, which i already addressed.

Evl, i deleted that sentence because i figured people wouldnt get the point of it. It's not bringing up politics, but asking If i say im something, but act completely opposed to it, what am i? what i say i am, or how i act?

the whole quetion of is religion produce more harm or good seems like it would have a different implication for europeans.

All through out history, people have been measuring the harm that has come from religions, but i don't remember ever coming across the good that has come from religion. I bet people like Bill Gates and warren buffet may have given away their fortunes and dedicated their lives to charitable events without religion, but we CANT TELL. while some people believe in the bettering of society for society's sake, my main drive to do good inthe world is because it's my duty to be a better christian...I'm sure that there are many people who follow my line of thinking. without religions, I wouldnt really be a bad person, but i wouldnt be striving as hard to be a good one.

[EvilDmitri]

I don't know why you felt this urge to argue about Hitler vs Bush, I don't see where this stuff came up. I just have to said that people are stupid if they don't want to talk to you unless you agree with them. I guess it's not the girl's brain you were after.

Felony, the real problem is: faith-based argument are based on faith. Faith is based on...faith. Faith is unverifiable. Hence anything faith-based has to be taken on face value. You must know how dangerous that can be. As Psi said, by your very thought process you deny to others the right to believe like you. But more importantly, you discriminate against anybody else that doesn't believe the same way you do. I don't see how this is BS tactic. It's very logical.

It just seems a lot less risky, and much more logical, to be open to arguments that have a base in reality. Other type of arguments are at best opinions, which are hard to debate or sustain. The faith of believers is real, as is the reasons for why they believe in it. However, the object of this faith has no tangible reality.

But we really strayed from the purpose of this thread.

Don't want to argue it, it is simply something I am absolutely sick of hearing, and illustrates how people will exaggerate something simply to place themselves into a more socially acceptable position, which parallels some religous convictions. The girl was supposedly quite intelligent, and an atheist as well, but I learned more about her later which made me question her intellect >.>.

As far as unfair argumentative tactics go, most of them are self defeating and only call into question the person using them. I don't think trying to establish a definition of a good Christian is necessairly cheap.

Regardless of all that, and back onto the topic, Religon doing more harm than good is an entirely subjective and faith based question. The effects are non-quantifiable, and each "act" is subject to the perception of what is good and what is bad, so agreeing on a consistant way to quantify said acts would be nearly impossible. As such, it is not a scientific question, and will reveal nothing other than our own love for arguing and putting people's beliefs down, which I think there is plenty of to go around (I don't deny enjoying it). Because of that, we won't get much from this thread other than a few good laughs perhaps, but I don't see much reason for stopping it if people want to play into it.

[MrFelony]

well some of it IS quantifiable, like when a church sends aid to another country or homeless shelter, or when a a dictator or leader uses religious differences as an excuse to persecute another group. however there are SO many instances of good and bad that you can't count that its moot.

[Albator]

It's very important and interesting to debate such topics, that touch all of us, especially in a tight community like EG. I rather talk about this than wonder if "the 4th is inside Naruto". I'm not laughing at anybody, nor enjoy putting anybody down or their belief. It's just part of your own reflexion. Are you saying it's asking too much from this community? I would think it's actually the strong point of this forum, too often discarded.

After all, this is better than ignoring each other's point of view, or even kill each other.

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

Heres a video about What If Jesus had Never been born. It goes against the negative claims about mindless faith and the vast amount of good christianity has wrought. A huge amount of science originated over the thought about christianity and god(Sir Isacc Newton to name one of many referd to God and religious theocracy more than science, to explain astronomy). The crusades, weekends, the arts, education(universities-harverd, yale, prinston, oxford all explicitly rooted in christianity, the alphabet), the foundation of the US(yes the country you have so many freedoms in was founded on christian ethics, the constitution), all relate back to christianity. Not to mention that christianity gives people hope, makes people drop their life threatening habits(drugs, etc.) and turns jailed men into biblical scholors.

It also speaks out about the many profit less organzations that reach out to millions. Hundreds of christian organizations, churches give freely to the needy to better aid the hungry, sick, needy. The ten commandments Christmas, easter, are these all dillusions thought up through mindless faith? How can you say that christianity does more bad than good?

Heres a program my old church used to contribute to every year. It gives millions of needy children in poor countries presents every year so they can smile once a year.operation christmas child http://samaritanspurse.org/OCC.asp?MPGID=1

from http://www.samaritanspurse.org/

What If Jesus had never Been Born?
http://www.coralridge.org/whatif/pressr ... clips&on=5

[square-enix]

Fun title, what a subtle way to imply that Christianity is the only religion that has done 'good'. With their messiah never born, we would never have had our wonderful bloody crusades.
Most of our mathematical and scientific findings originated from the Chinese dynasties and Muslim empire but you credit these findings to the Catholic church, why?
Sir Isacc Newton did believe in a God (not the Christian one mind you) but only to set the laws of our universe in motion.

the foundation of the US(yes the country you have so many freedoms in was founded on christian ethics, the constitution), all relate back to christianity.

Realize that our founding fathers came from the Enlightenment and they were also Deist.

Not to mention that christianity gives people hope, makes people drop their life threatening habits(drugs, etc.) and turns jailed men into biblical scholors.

1) What do the 200+ million Christians in the states need hope for?
2) Organizations and loved ones help one drop bad habits.
3) Those jailed men could be helping the economy instead of studying theology which advances nothing.

How can you say that christianity does more bad than good?

No one is denying that religion does some good but you're implying that humans wouldn't help each other if it wasn't for religion. Religion is the is the cause for the conditions in which the people [that religious organizations are helping] live in.
With all the power the church has, all it can muster is preaching hope via their religion?
Even Sir Richard Branson is doing a better job.

If it weren't for Christianity, we would have a world power doing nothing to further scientific research or ignoring environmental issues that are killing the wildlife.

[psi29a]

I would just like to point out that this shouldn't be an area of stigma in the forums. I think it is great that so many people from all walks of life can have common ground such as Berserk.

The idea here to challenge each other topics, just so happens that anything regarding faith is very HOT and does get very personal because it touches on a very personal level. Take for example Pascal's wager:

You believe in God:
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, your loss (the investment in your mistaken belief) is finite.

You do not believe in God:
o If God does not exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.
o If God does exist, your loss is infinite: your gain is zero, and you may be punished.

Obviously it is noted as Pascal's flaw by Voltaire, but you get the drift. Because the topic is very personal, I don't want people to leave the forum in disgust, rather I want it to be talked about. I'm not personally on a crusade to change anyones belief, I think the topics are important and worth discussing because it does have a very real impact on us.

The mear fact that we have a multi-page thread on this indicates that it is important to us.

I apologize if I come off sounding pretentious, as that was not the goal. It is a serious attempt to get you to see it from my perspective. I find it irresponsible of myself to hold double standards. I approach things in an analytical fashion, using reason to find a result. Obviously my head doesn't explode when encountered with a paradox, but rather think to myself that perhaps the question is inanswerable and try another question instead.

Faith and by extension belief are words I avoid in my life because even if presented with an answer I want to test it for myself. Obviously I can't test faith, or belief so I have to take what you say at face value until I can prove it false. This is very much the opposite of Science where everything is assumed false till proven true.

I hope you see where I'm coming from and why I find it difficult to accept that Hilter was not Catholic, and that Bush is not Christian and that Saladin is not Muslem because I cannot disprove someone's faith once they claim they are unless they have denounced it themselves.

Granted there may be wolves in sheeps clothing, if that is the case then all bets are off and trust is spoiled for everyone meaning that you are not Christian just as KKK members are not Christians because I was told that you may be just pretending to be Christian so perhaps they are too.

Look at "Left Behind" as an example, it is extremly anti-Catholic and claims that Catholics are not really Christians. The authors of the book truly believe this. How can I or you possibly prove them wrong?

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

There are many branches of Christianity. Catholocism, protistant, methodist to name a few. Catholocism however takes a big turn from the latter named groups because of its specific beliefs in the Virgin Marry. While in the bible it clearly states that she was blessed amung women, yes. Catholocism, however, worships merry, as though a god(statues/prayers of forgiveness), and the catholics have even created their own books to help ploy the virgin Marry and other beliefs that go along with the Catholic view(as were the debate employs).

However, dispite the various trends, what it all comes down to in Christianity is the belief of Jesus Christ dieing for our sins, ultimatly defeating sin and satan and endowing the holy spirit(one of the trinity of father, son, holy spirit) on those who have faith of this and the sacrifice that was made. As Christians we are to try and be LIKE Jesus Christ(a feat no mortal can duplicate:perfection-sinless). We are to follow his ways(peace, blessing, and forgiveness) to try and be like him. True we are all human and we sin but we always come crawling back to God in the end.

It also states in the bible that there will be an end judgement of all men. Every action will be atoned for, every sin counted. Christians believe that to accept Jesus as your savior your sins are forgiven and that to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus is the ultimatum for the Jewish act of slaughtering a ram or a sheep to atone for your sins(thus Jesus being the "perfect lamb" who shed his blood for our sins).

It has been said, "Faith without works is dead"(James), and thus if these people claim to be "christian" they cannot be for they do not fear god and his wrath for their horrible deeds(or follow the laws of the Bible). To do horrible in the name of Christinity is an act to try and deface the religion(blasphemy), not embrace it.

[Brainpiercing]

Religion is good because I totally dig santa-chick porn.

[psi29a]

... what it all comes down to in Christianity is the belief of Jesus Christ dieing for our sins ...

The above quote is a summation of the most common of ground amongst those who profess to be Christians. Granted you can't just say it, you truly have to believe it. How do you question's someone's belief?

Who are we to say who is more Christian, Muslem, Jewish? When who is right is nothing more than a subjective choice based on interpretations then we have problems as witnessed by all the cruel acts over the ages.

That is what I see as the problem. When your deacon, vicar, or priest says to you "They are not really God's children, they will burn in hell, this is the only way to salvation", with so many competing standards, which one is correct?

The most correct answer from my point of view would be none are. However, I don't think belief structures like organized religions are open to that point of view. Why is that?

[MrFelony]

i always agreed with you there. its impossible to really tell what a person is thinking, however it is possible to measure their actions. but when a person designs a plan to wipe out millions of people...i'm pretty sure they don't follow the beliefs behind ANY religions besides satanism maybe . no matter what a person like hitler believes or says they are, I just can't accept that he would ever be considered a real christian by anyone's standards. also, invoking the name of god in vain is a sin, which can include invoking god's name in sinful acts. so if it's considered a sinful or unworthy act which many people don't realise. so when a rapper/gangsta or someone who lives a life of sin thanks god for that, can be considered a sin itself if i understand correctly.

and Psi, thats why i try to not make faith based arguments, since i know you and others on the boards think analytically. and sometimes part of the reason i don't like what you say is because you do do a good job questioning and sometimes i don't like having weak points pointed out .

[ZoddsNo1Fan]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4-LGQYQmNE&NR[/youtube]

This is what Dane Cook has to say about his brush with an atheist. I found it to be amusing.