Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Evil_Genius' Berserk community, Kentaro Miura's epic masterpiece, still active and translated. (Please don't ask about older Volumes. Buy from DarkHorse and support Miura.)

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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Starnum » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:15 am

Yeah, there's been a lot of good points made so far for both sides. Ultimately, if I end up liking something enough, I do spend more money on it. So I do believe the free publicity aspect is advantageous to the market as well.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby hbi2k » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:05 am

Rolos wrote:PS: Why cant everyone do like the creators of South Park? I don't know the details, but their sales system seems to work.


Are you talking about the fact that they stream most of the episodes of their show on their web site? Lots of places DO do that. Check out Hulu, Crunchyroll, and Funimation's site. There's all KINDS of free stuff out there. (Edit: Just double-checked and saw that you're located in Chile, yes? You're probably SOL for at least couple of those, then. That sucks, sorry.)

The thing of it is, it's pretty easy to do that when you're a huge cash cow like South Park. They don't have to worry too much about money. Doing something like that with a niche product like, say, Berserk would be financial suicide.

It's naive to believe that sales don't have an impact on the industry. Take something like Hellsing. I LOVES me some Hellsing. Not so much the first anime, which was mostly filler, but the manga. So when they announced that they were going to be rebooting the anime with a series of OVAs that stuck closer to the source material and had a better animation budget, I was ecstatic. That was a ballsy move, because a show like that which has too much gore to be shown on television or to children will never reach the same kind of mainstream status as a One Piece or a DBZ or a Naruto.

When they were making the decision to do that, you can BET they looked DAMN close at the sales of the original anime and the manga to decide whether it would be worth the money to produce.

Now, the OVAs were co-funded by Geneon, which has recently been undergoing a financial crisis. Once again, it's unfair to blame ALL of Geneon's problems on piracy, but you'd be naive to believe it wasn't a factor. Geneon had to drop distribution of Ultimate Hellsing in the U.S. It got picked up by Funimation, thankfully, and production is still going forward. I'm not sure whether Madhouse picked up the slack for Geneon or what, but whoever's paying the bills these days, you can be DAMN sure that they looked very closely at the sales of the previous DVDs before deciding whether it would be worth the investment to continue.

Now, you can say "Oh, DVD sales only go to the middlemen" all you like, but sometimes it's the middlemen who decide which projects continue and which get canceled and how much budget they get. When you support something, either by paying for it directly or sitting through ads, you're voting with your dollar, sending a direct message to the powers that be on the only currency they recognize (green), "This is good stuff. I like good stuff. I don't like crap. Don't make crap. Make more good stuff."

When I buy an anime or manga and another person pirates it, I am literally subsidizing that person's entertainment. I'm paying for both our tickets. Now, as you say, it's not black and white. If you generally make an honest effort to support the arts but every once in a while you don't support it as much as you maybe should, hey, fine, nobody's perfect. As long as there aren't too many people like that, I don't mind giving one or two a hand. But let's be clear: piracy is a vice. A forgivable vice under the right circumstances, but not something to be proud of.

Now, a douchebag like Fight Club, who judging from his post seldom or never pays for his entertainment? Who mocks people who do for doing so? Who tries to dress up his vice and pretend that it's a virtue? Man, fuck you.

Pirating ALL the time just because you can is like walking into an expensive restaurant with a group of fifteen people, spending three hours filling up on free breadsticks and stealing from the salad bar while the waiter's not looking while pretending to look over the menu, and then splitting an order of children's fries and leaving without tipping the waiter. Is the waiter going to starve or the restaurant go out of business? Probably not, unless EVERYBODY does it. Are you going to get arrested? Probably not. But still, do you really want to be THAT guy? If you're really THAT broke, wouldn't it be better to eat a bowl of instant ramen at home and keep your dignity?
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby War Machine » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:53 am

Another common misconception that I just remembered and should've added to my previous list:

- Piracy is stealing.

Under the eyes of the law (US law at least, but I'm sure other countries agree) piracy is not the same as stealing because the act of piracy does not deprive the owner from his item, instead the item gets reproduced without the owner's consent.

Anyway, responding to hbi2k.

Your argument rests on the sole premise that you fully support and welcome everything you buy, which is not always the case. How many people get suckered into buying things they later realize are worthless, faulty, or don't need? Second, companies don't always express people's needs even if they would sell, how many people have been wanting to legally download The Beatles songs on iTunes? I'm pretty sure they would sell (I don't quite know the real reason why they're not available at iTunes, other than they don't want to further iTunes lead in music sales, but the point is that the option to sell is not reason enough to guarantee the artist's perpetuity). Add to this the fact that not all music/anime/movies are even available for the consumer in a timely manner or worse, ever (good luck finding the Berserk Dreamcast game's soundtrack).

Don't you think that the fact that millions of people download currently playing movies sends a message to the movie industry that either people don't want to pay the high prices at movie theaters and/or people prefer to watch movies at home? Where's the industry's response to that outcry? My point (again) being that companies don't always listen to consumers regardless of how it affects them, so the simple monetary transaction is not enough to truly reflect the people's desire (the movie industry is still making shitloads of money at the movie theater though).

I had been watching a show at Hulu for about a month, keeping up with the new episodes as they were added when all of a sudden they all get taken down. Now my only means of watching the show now is to wait until they release the DVDs (which of no news have been heard of yet) or download them illegally (the show I was watching is called Merlin if you wanted to know, good show).

And finally,
hbi2k wrote:It's naive to believe that sales don't have an impact on the industry.
Yes, they do impact, but it's not always negatively. Let me repost the study I just mentioned earlier in which they said that "Downloads have an effect on sales which is statistically indistinguishable from zero."(Source)
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Rolos » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:13 am

Download this song

PS: I just sent that study to every Congressman in my country. If it's fake I'll look like a retard. :D
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby War Machine » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:23 am

Rolos wrote:PS: I just sent that study to every Congressman in my country. If it's fake I'll look like a retard. :D
:roll:
Mwahahahaha! :twisted:

Nah, it's legit.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Aetherfukz » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:28 am

I smell some hypocracy here from some people. Everyone on these boards is technically a pirate because we read Berserk before it is officially translated. Yeah, it's a greyish zone, but it still is technically verboten.

I have all the Berserk volumes that are out in germany, and I buy new ones as soon as they come out. Hell, I don't even read them usually because a) the EG translation usually is way better [e.g. where the official release just plops a big fat black square on the kanji and writes text in it, EG and other scanlators work the text into the picture, etc.] and b) I feel comfortable just having the volumes on my shelf.

I usually try to buy stuff thats worth buying. I download cool music albums for 8 euros (which is a very OK price for 12-15 songs), and I buy most of my PC games too for the simple fact that I just can't be bothered with downloading stuff from bittorrent or other slow servers most of the time (steam rocks). But stuff that I know is just overpriced, or not really worth buying (Dragonball, Bleach, some games you play through in 4 hours, etc.) I pirate the shit out of it.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby hbi2k » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:30 am

War Machine wrote:Your argument rests on the sole premise that you fully support and welcome everything you buy


Why on God's green Earth would you buy something you don't want? If you're enough of a sucker to do so, that's your own problem.

Add to this the fact that not all music/anime/movies are even available for the consumer in a timely manner or worse, ever (good luck finding the Berserk Dreamcast game's soundtrack).


You'll notice that I was VERY careful to note that I was ONLY speaking out against pirating material that is legitimately available in your area. Please read and understand my posts if you're going to respond to them.

Don't you think that the fact that millions of people download currently playing movies sends a message to the movie industry that either people don't want to pay the high prices at movie theaters and/or people prefer to watch movies at home? Where's the industry's response to that outcry? My point (again) being that companies don't always listen to consumers regardless of how it affects them, so the simple monetary transaction is not enough to truly reflect the people's desire (the movie industry is still making shitloads of money at the movie theater though).


1.) All else being equal, lower prices lead to higher sales. Therefore, companies which sell things to the public take great care to sell them such that there is a decent profit margin, but that the item is still affordable to the maximum number of potential customers. It's a delicate balancing act, and some companies tend toward one side or the other of it, but that's the theory anyway.

2.) It's certainly true that some companies do not listen to their consumers. However, if you do not reward the ones who DO by buying their products, then where is the incentive for them to do so?

Let me repost the study I just mentioned earlier in which they said that "Downloads have an effect on sales which is statistically indistinguishable from zero."(Source)


Dude, I don't need to cite a study to prove what should be common sense to everyone. This is such a basic tenet of economics that it's become a cliche: if you give things away for free, you don't make money. It's like the old joke,

Businessman A: What's the profit margin on this product?
Businessman B: 0.
Businessman A: How can you make money that way?
Businessman B: Oh, we make it up in volume.

It's very simple. I like living in a world where I can go to the store and buy a volume of Berserk. I'm very grateful to Evil Genius for their hard work, but all else being equal, I don't WANT to read my manga on a computer screen with image quality that depends on the whims of whoever happens to be providing the raws this issue. I want to have a copy with ink on paper that I can read in bed and on the bus and in the can. (Of course all else is NOT equal since EG can get chapters out much faster than waiting for the volumes, which is why I read their stuff IN ADDITION TO, not INSTEAD OF, buying the volumes.) Evil Genius can't give that to me, because things like ink and paper and the license to sell the manga cost money and they're not such nice guys that they're going to pony up for all of us to have that.

Dark Horse DOES give that to me, and all they ask in exchange is about ten bucks a volume. They do good quality work, their translators are generally good, they bring a lot of awesome shit to the U.S., and they don't censor. I want to make sure they can stay in business, so I pay them their ten-odd bucks per volume as much to support them as to get the bundle of dead trees. The fact that some of that money indirectly gets from me back through the Japanese rights holders and ultimately to Miura is a very nice feeling too.

Change around some details, and that same story is the reason why I try to make a concerted effort to support lots of other things I like. Family Guy got canceled, but I and a lot of others bought the DVDs and now it's back. Firefly got canceled, and I bought the DVDs and they made a movie that I loved. When fans support the things they love, those things tend to last longer.

I'm not advocating a 100% black-and-white worldview in which piracy is ALWAYS wrong. I AM saying that you should avoid it unless you have a damn good reason (it's not legally available in your area, it's grossly overpriced, it's heavily censored, etc.), rather than using it as your default method of getting a hold of stuff unless you have a damn good reason NOT to.

Now what the hell is so hard to understand about that?
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Starnum » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:57 pm

War Machine wrote:I had been watching a show at Hulu for about a month, keeping up with the new episodes as they were added when all of a sudden they all get taken down. Now my only means of watching the show now is to wait until they release the DVDs (which of no news have been heard of yet) or download them illegally (the show I was watching is called Merlin if you wanted to know, good show)


See, this is what gets me about Hulu. All they seem to be doing is redirecting episodes from other websites. What I mean is, I watch free episodes on a lot of different websites, like nbc.com, abc.com, fox.com, adultswim.com, etc. All of the episodes on Hulu, are the same exact episodes that are on those sites, and only the same select few episodes. If all of the eps are on the host sites, they won't all be on hulu. As for Merlin, I've been following it too, on NBC.com. Go check there if you're missing some episodes. They might have them there. What was the last episode you saw though, because the season is now over. That might be why they were taken down from Hulu. Nope, nevermind, just checked and they've been removed from NBC's site as well, of course. That's why they're no longer on Hulu. Well that sucks, just go DL them then, if you can. XD

hbi2k wrote:It's very simple. I like living in a world where I can go to the store and buy a volume of Berserk. I'm very grateful to Evil Genius for their hard work, but all else being equal, I don't WANT to read my manga on a computer screen with image quality that depends on the whims of whoever happens to be providing the raws this issue. I want to have a copy with ink on paper that I can read in bed and on the bus and in the can. (Of course all else is NOT equal since EG can get chapters out much faster than waiting for the volumes, which is why I read their stuff IN ADDITION TO, not INSTEAD OF, buying the volumes.) Evil Genius can't give that to me, because things like ink and paper and the license to sell the manga cost money and they're not such nice guys that they're going to pony up for all of us to have that.

Dark Horse DOES give that to me, and all they ask in exchange is about ten bucks a volume. They do good quality work, their translators are generally good, they bring a lot of awesome shit to the U.S., and they don't censor. I want to make sure they can stay in business, so I pay them their ten-odd bucks per volume as much to support them as to get the bundle of dead trees. The fact that some of that money indirectly gets from me back through the Japanese rights holders and ultimately to Miura is a very nice feeling too.


I actually prefer to read manga on a computer screen, maybe I'm just weird like that. Also, this goes along with the point I was making before. I read a lot of manga online, so I don't have a hard copy. Plus, if it's not done by a good group every week, sometimes I have to deal with shitty image quality and bad translations/QC. Yet another hit I take, for getting to merely view the product, for free. Hence the compromise I was referring to before. Despite that though, I like being able to blow the images up, when they are in good quality, so I can see the picture better. Can't do that with a book. Also, if I had every manga volume I've ever read, I don't know where I'd keep them all. It's really kind of like a double edged sword, because it's cool to have the book. It's a physical thing that I can carry around and look at, but it also takes up space. That's just a few examples of what I was talking about. XD

hbi2k wrote:Now what the hell is so hard to understand about that?


It's not hard to understand. I get where you're coming from. Common sense would seem to imply that the greater the demand for a product, then the more it'll be made and sold. I'm with you on that. That's why I try to support the things I like the best I can. However, here's the funny thing...

hbi2k wrote:Change around some details, and that same story is the reason why I try to make a concerted effort to support lots of other things I like. Family Guy got canceled, but I and a lot of others bought the DVDs and now it's back. Firefly got canceled, and I bought the DVDs and they made a movie that I loved. When fans support the things they love, those things tend to last longer.


I didn't even get into Family Guy until after it had returned from it's cancellation, so at the time I didn't even like it. Never got into Firefly, but I enjoyed the movie. Also, I've only watched like the first five episodes of Hellsing, and for some reason I never cared to watch anymore of it. Of course, these are only specific shows. Not to say I too haven't been the victim of cancellation. I really enjoyed "Arrested Development". I watched it every week when it came on TV, unless I missed it. Then I'd just DL the ep because the DVD's weren't out yet. Thankfully I have a DVR now, so I can just record the shows when they air, w00t. Anyway, I was a big fan of that show, and I thought it was comedy genius, but it got canceled for some reason. I guess the ratings weren't very good, which is a little surprising for me, but it happens. Good shows do get canceled. Though a lot of times it's because of ratings, and not DVD sells. Depending on time slots, some people have certain shows they always watch, even if new good shows are coming on at the same time. What are you gonna do, right? It really depends on the show and what mediums it's available in though, of course.

hbi2k wrote:I'm not advocating a 100% black-and-white worldview in which piracy is ALWAYS wrong. I AM saying that you should avoid it unless you have a damn good reason (it's not legally available in your area, it's grossly overpriced, it's heavily censored, etc.), rather than using it as your default method of getting a hold of stuff unless you have a damn good reason NOT to.


Sure, fair enough. This brings me back to what you were saying before about being "that guy" though. See, I try not to be "that guy". You know, the mouch who's always looking for a free lunch. I have been there though, and I always felt bad about it. I've done my fair share of canoodling, so I can't hold it against or judge the guys that do it all the time with no remorse, because I still get mine from time to time as well. I do understand where you're coming from though, and since I do try to do right when I can, that's why I do the best I can to support the artists. I do like being able to go to the mall and buy stuff, from DVD's, manga, or even just memorabilia like posters or whatever. That's why I do buy stuff when I can, so that hopefully it will help to stimulate the production of stuff I like. That's why I have both Netflix and Gamefly, aside from buying merchandise, because it's just another way I can throw in my two bits, as well as effect the market for things I like. I forgot who said it, but even viewing something can effect it. I really do think there are benefits for both piracy and legitimate sells. So it's important to find a fair balance, at the very least. I'm not gonna buy something if I don't like it, but at least I can sample it first and see. If I do like something, I'm sure to inevitably spend money on it. That's the kind of guy I am, I like to buy things. I just have to be careful to curve those impulse buys, because I do live on a budget. Okay, enough rambling from me, for now. XD
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby hbi2k » Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:58 pm

Starnum wrote:I really enjoyed "Arrested Development". I watched it every week when it came on TV, unless I missed it. Then I'd just DL the ep because the DVD's weren't out yet. Thankfully I have a DVR now, so I can just record the shows when they air, w00t. Anyway, I was a big fan of that show, and I thought it was comedy genius, but it got canceled for some reason. I guess the ratings weren't very good, which is a little surprising for me, but it happens. Good shows do get canceled. Though a lot of times it's because of ratings, and not DVD sells. Depending on time slots, some people have certain shows they always watch, even if new good shows are coming on at the same time. What are you gonna do, right? It really depends on the show and what mediums it's available in though, of course.


Fair enough. Thing is, by watching it on TV where the creators / TV network were getting their profit from ad sales, you WERE supporting it. And even though Arrested Development didn't last as long as a lot of people would've liked, the only reason it lasted as long as it did was because it had a dedicated fanbase who went way out of their way to support it.

That's the other thing, a show's need for support tends to be inversely proportional to the size of its fanbase. I mean, you mentioned pirating Naruto a couple times. Now, at this point Naruto is very cheap and you can watch legal streams for free or rent the DVDs through Netflix or watch the dub on TV (It's censored, but it's also free, so whaddayagonnado?), so there's really no reason to pirate it, but that wasn't always the case. And anyway Naruto is more popular than God so I'm not going to get on your case too much for pirating something like that.

That's the exception rather than the rule when it comes to anime, though. Anime is a perpetually niche product in this country, and generally speaking it needs a lot of fan support to keep going. It's not really a simple matter of, "Oh, the companies I'd be paying money to just take an existing product and port it over," either. A lot of the stuff that folks with Western sensibilities tend to enjoy is created with the specific goal of appealing to the worldwide market: it couldn't survive if the only people who were paying for it lived in one tiny island nation off the coast of Asia. And more often than not, the funding comes from American companies as well as Japanese studios. Like when they made a second season of Big O co-funded by Cartoon Network because it was relatively popular in the U.S.

'Course, the second season of Big O kind of sucked compared to the first one, so maybe that's not the best example, but you get my drift. (-:

Edit: Rereading my original post it occurs to me that I may have been unclear when I said, "I keep up-to-date on the legit English release of Berserk and every other manga I read through scanlations and would hope that everyone else here would do the same." What I should have said is that I buy the legit release of every manga that I FOLLOW through scanlations. I certainly don't think that anyone who picks up a scanlation, reads one volume, and then puts it down and says "Eh, not for me," should be obligated to buy that volume just to throw it away when the English version comes out. In a case like Berserk, though, if you've read all 34 volumes (and, in the case of myself and many people here, read them multiple times) and derived THAT much enjoyment out of them, I certainly think it does behoove you to do your best to give something back by buying the official version or trying to support the franchise in some other way.

Right now the only manga I follow through scanlations on a regular, chapter-by-chapter basis besides Berserk is Gantz, so I buy those volumes as they come out. Everything else I'm willing to wait on the English release for, and I read them at the library or wait for really good sales before I buy them. It *is* possible to generally avoid the more egregious forms of piracy without hemorrhaging money, y'know.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Istvan » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:08 am

Everything else I'm willing to wait on the English release for, and I read them at the library


You lost me there. How on a moral/ethical/practical level (I understand the legal difference) is reading something in the library different from reading it online? In both cases, you aren't buying it. Since the scanlators have to purchase a copy in order to scanlate it for us, just as the library has to purchase a copy for you to read, the support for the author/industry seems about the same.

1.) All else being equal, lower prices lead to higher sales. Therefore, companies which sell things to the public take great care to sell them such that there is a decent profit margin, but that the item is still affordable to the maximum number of potential customers. It's a delicate balancing act, and some companies tend toward one side or the other of it, but that's the theory anyway.


Not entirely true. What it really comes down to is how flexible demand is, which depends greatly on what alternatives are available. An example. If I (as a businessman producing a product) know that by tripling the price of my product, demand will drop by about 10%, you can BET that I'm going to triple the price. Because even with the drop in demand, I'll still be making far more money that way. How much demand drops for a given price increase depends on A) how popular/important the product is and B) what available alternatives for the product are out there for people to get instead. In regards to movies, music, manga, anime, etc. one of the things that keeps the industry relatively "honest" is that the internet provides ready made alternatives to buying. As long as most people view prices as "fair" (as Starnum pointed out) they'll tend to buy the product to support the author/industry. If prices seem overly high to them, they'll stop buying and settle for the internet version.


Let me repost the study I just mentioned earlier in which they said that "Downloads have an effect on sales which is statistically indistinguishable from zero."(Source)


Dude, I don't need to cite a study to prove what should be common sense to everyone. This is such a basic tenet of economics that it's become a cliche: if you give things away for free, you don't make money. It's like the old joke,


Again, not entirely true. Oh sure, you have to make money on your product, but as War Machine pointed out, online "pirating" doesn't really cut into that. If you don't like the survey he cited, you can also check out the Baen Free Library (where various authors put some of their books online, for free, to be downloaded/read by anyone who wants to) and read the posts by Eric Flint (the guy who largely organized the thing) on the subject of online piracy. As he points out the people who download/read such things online tend to fall into three basic catagories. First, people who just love stealing things and don't want to pay for them. Such people tend not to buy much regardless, so you're not actually loosing any money on their online "theft." Second, people who love the product but at the moment don't have the money (this would include me, and young people, until you've been out of college for a few years and have a decent job) to buy the product. Again, you're not really loosing money off such people in the short term, and in the long term once they have the money they'll tend to go out and buy the things they really liked, so if your work is good you'll make money off them in the long run. Third, people who want to check something out before buying it, which actually boosts the authors sales. Thus, online reading/downloading isn't much different from getting something from a library, or borrowing it from a friend, both of which authors tend to view as a good thing. More exposure/publicity=more sales, at least if your product is good. And if the product isn't good, then your problem isn't the online piracy.

Bottom line, as War Machine pointed out, it's simply a myth that a song/movie downloaded illegally equals a lost sale. That is only true if, lacking the option of downloading it, I would have gone out and purchased it. Since in the vast majority of cases this isn't the case, "Downloads have an effect on sales which is statistically indistinguishable from zero."
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby hbi2k » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:30 am

C'mon, now. This is grade-school-level morality here. They ever show you that video where the kid is walking past his neighbor's garden and picks a flower and says, "He's got so many, he'll never miss one!" and then it shows you what would happen if everyone walking past the garden did the same thing? This is the part of the whole "right and wrong" thing that's so basic that they teach it to you in KINDERGARTEN.

The difference between the library and modern Internet piracy is that the library can't create an infinite number of copies of each book it buys by pressing a button. Each copy it buys has a finite number of circulations in it before it's lost or stolen or destroyed. I work at the library, so I get to see just how finite it is, ESPECIALLY in the case of stuff that little kids like to read like One Piece or Naruto. Trust me, publishers are ECSTATIC when something like that gets carried by a large library system. Either the library has to keep on buying replacement copies, or else people have to go to the store if they want to keep reading (assuming that they don't pirate, of course).

It's also virtually impossible to read through an entire series of anything in the library. Even if they start out with an entire collection, before too long it's holier than Swiss cheese blessed by Mother Theresa. And more often than not it doesn't even start out complete, because they rely on donations to fill out their collections.

The library is a great way to check out lots of different stuff without spending a lot of money, but it's not a substitute for buying your own copy that you can keep at home, nice and complete. Downloading CAN be the same thing, but far too many people use it as a replacement for EVER buying ANYTHING.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby War Machine » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:26 am

hbi2k wrote:C'mon, now. This is grade-school-level morality here. They ever show you that video where the kid is walking past his neighbor's garden and picks a flower and says, "He's got so many, he'll never miss one!" and then it shows you what would happen if everyone walking past the garden did the same thing? This is the part of the whole "right and wrong" thing that's so basic that they teach it to you in KINDERGARTEN.
I'll say it again, piracy is not the same as stealing because it doesn't deprive the owner from his work.

Also, I'm glad you brought up the library, because that's the closest example to internet piracy there is. You could say, internet piracy is a library with an infinite amount of books/manga/movies/anime. You just said it, but, you didn't say what's wrong with that. Other than this:

hbi2k wrote:Downloading CAN be the same thing, but far too many people use it as a replacement for EVER buying ANYTHING.
How many times do we have to tell you this. No, that's not true, you are wrong in making that assumption. I know it's difficult to accept since the MPAA, RIAA and many other organizations have been spewing that lie for years, but not once has it been proven.

You're oversimplifying the situation here to a simple morality issue, but I'll take your side for a moment and ask this: Isn't working at a library the same as sharing something over the internet? You're working to share an artist's work without his expressed consent (even though it's legal for the library to do so) just the same as internet pirates yet you dare put yourself on a moral high ground on the basis of quantity? I hate to brake it to you, but libraries are not few or small by any measure, according to the American Library Association, in the US, there's 9,214 public libraries, 3,617 academic libraries, 1,150 government libraries and 99,180 school libraries. Taking every single library into account, you have 122,356 libraries in the US (Source). Are you going to tell me that the millions of people (in the US alone) who make use of libraries aren't significant?
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby The Prince » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:20 am

War Machine wrote:Yes, they do impact, but it's not always negatively. Let me repost the study I just mentioned earlier in which they said that "Downloads have an effect on sales which is statistically indistinguishable from zero."(Source)


I read the study and its conclusions are anything but conclusive IMO. Its data relies on a weak retrospective study model to establish cause and effect criteria that only work under a series of pressumptions defined by the authors.

I find it funny that two of the main arguments that the author gives to rationalize why DLing does not keep people from buying CD's is the prospect of missing out on the CD cover and case artwork. And that it exposes more people to an artists music....thus assuming it would give the downloader more incentive to purchase their music after they have already downloaded it.....HUH?

Speaking from my experience I can tell you this. I have over 3 hundred CD's in my collection, but I haven't bought 1 CD in probably over 2 years for myself. And I am pretty sure being able to DL music via p2p shareware has something to account for that.

And in regards to hbi2k I have seen all the new Hellsing OVA's in which I have either streamed or downloaded. And though I probably would not have bought the DVD's if I didn't download them I would have at least paid to have rented them. Which makes me feel bad because in a way I have probably stole money indirectly from the local mom and pop anime video store down the road from which I know carries them.

War Machine wrote:You're oversimplifying the situation here to a simple morality issue, but I'll take your side for a moment and ask this: Isn't working at a library the same as sharing something over the internet? You're working to share an artist's work without his expressed consent (even though it's legal for the library to do so) just the same as internet pirates yet you dare put yourself on a moral high ground on the basis of quantity? I hate to brake it to you, but libraries are not few or small by any measure, according to the American Library Association, in the US, there's 9,214 public libraries, 3,617 academic libraries, 1,150 government libraries and 99,180 school libraries. Taking every single library into account, you have 122,356 libraries in the US (Source). Are you going to tell me that the millions of people (in the US alone) who make use of libraries aren't significant?


When was the last time you used the library outside of studying or doing a research paper for school? I can't think of the last time I had. But I don't have to tell you when I was last on a computer......
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Istvan » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:33 am

When was the last time you used the library outside of studying or doing a research paper for school? I can't think of the last time I had. But I don't have to tell you when I was last on a computer......


Last time I was at a library to check out something for fun? Less then a week ago.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby hbi2k » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:45 am

War Machine wrote:I'll say it again, piracy is not the same as stealing because it doesn't deprive the owner from [sic] his work.


That was a metaphor illustrating that some actions that seem harmless, when repeated by many people, can have a large effect. The fact that the specific example I used was one that involved physical theft was incidental. I am well aware of the distinctions between the concepts of intellectual and physical theft. Do try to avoid oversimplifying my arguments, please.

How many times do we have to tell you this. No, that's not true, you are wrong in making that assumption. I know it's difficult to accept since the MPAA, RIAA and many other organizations have been spewing that lie for years, but not once has it been proven.


Saying the same thing over and over again does not make it so. It's simple common sense. Several people IN THIS VERY THREAD have admitted that they never, or very seldom, buy the anime and manga that they pirate. I can't think of any possible reason why they'd be lying about that. Personal experience reveals that these peoples' attitudes are representative of many other people I have met in several other communities online and off.

I am basing my arguments on a combination of common sense and personal experience, not anything having to do with the MPAA and RIAA. I'll thank you to stop making groundless accusations on that point. I find it insulting and counterproductive to our discussion. When you're debating with a representative of those groups, you can bring up their rhetoric. On this thread it's off-topic.

Isn't working at a library the same as sharing something over the internet? You're working to share an artist's work without his expressed consent (even though it's legal for the library to do so) just the same as internet pirates yet you dare put yourself on a moral high ground on the basis of quantity? I hate to brake [sic] it to you, but libraries are not few or small by any measure, [sic] according to the American Library Association, in the US, there's [sic] 9,214 public libraries, 3,617 academic libraries, 1,150 government libraries and 99,180 school libraries. Taking every single library into account, you have 122,356 libraries in the US (Source). Are you going to tell me that the millions of people (in the US alone) who make use of libraries aren't significant?


Compared to Internet piracy? No, the scale is not even NEAR the same. Once again, this is common sense. Compare and contrast:

The Library Model:

The library buys a copy of an anime DVD. I check it out, watch it once, and then return it. A finite number of people who happen to live physically close to that particular library have the opportunity to do the same before it is lost or damaged and removed from circulation. If I like it enough that I want to have a permanent copy of it in my collection, I buy it along with the other volumes in the series. If I don't, then that's the end of it. The other people who checked it out either do the same, or they don't. The creators receive compensation for EVERY copy of that DVD that's purchased by EVERY library that carries it, often multiple copies per branch. Using your own numbers, that means well over 100,000 copies of that DVD sold in the US alone, PLUS however many of those people decided they wanted a personal copy. Even if that's only 1% of those who checked it out, that's significant.

The Irresponsible Pirate Model:

Someone buys a copy of the same DVD, rips it, and puts it on the Internet. A theoretically unlimited number of people may download it. Once they do, they now have a permanent copy that they may keep for as long as they please. There is no incentive for them to ever buy the legitimate version, and so they do not. This is EXACTLY the model that multiple people, again IN THIS VERY THREAD, have admitted to following. The ratio between the number of copies sold (as few as one) and the number of people who enjoyed it without paying for it (unlimited) is VASTLY different from the above model.

The Responsible Pirate Model:

As above, someone buys a copy of the a DVD. In this case, it is a DVD available only in Japan. This person rips it, subtitles it, and puts it on the Internet. Because I have no legal ability to obtain this content, I download it. I watch enough to get an idea of whether I like it enough to pay money for it if I am afforded that opportunity in the future, maybe an episode or two. If I decide that I don't, I delete it immediately and that's the end of it, the same as if I'd borrowed it from the library or rented it and then returned it. Okay, maybe I should've been more patient and waited until it was available legally in the U.S., but that could've taken years and my willpower failed. I'm not proud of it, but I can live with it on my conscience.

But let's say that I DO like it enough to pay money for it. I believe that it is a high-quality piece of art worthy of my monetary support. I continue to watch it beyond the first few episodes. As soon as it is licensed and released in my home country, I immediately purchase the legitimate version and delete the pirated one. The pirated version has served its purpose, I have an awesome piece of anime to add to my collection, the artist has been supported. All is well with the cosmos.

Now, the first and third models are acceptable. The middle one is not. The middle one is the cancer that is killing the anime industry.

If you follow the third model-- maybe not perfectly, but at least TRY to make some effort to support the things that you purport to be a fan of-- then I have no beef with you except to say that I think you are greatly underestimating the number of people who follow the middle model and the effect that they are having on the anime industry and the entertainment industry in general. And ultimately, a factual disagreement like that is one I can live with.

It seems that there are really two things we are arguing about here: the morality of piracy and the effect it has on the anime industry. Let's leave aside the effect of piracy on the anime industry for the moment. Neither of us is going to convince the other on that point. When it comes to the more important of the two points, that of morality, my concern is merely that people who purport to be fans of art have a responsibility to make a reasonable effort, within their abilities, to support the continued success of that art. Details aside, can we at least agree on that fundamental premise?
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Rolos » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:17 pm

I don't think morality is the issue here. It's just about protecting your own interests. You like how that guy/gal writes/plays/films/whatever?
Encourage him/her to create even more stuff by buying his/her works.
I have approximately 60 animated series in my hard-drive, but I only own 7 of them. Why? Because the rest of them are not worth buying. I downloaded most of them out of sheer curiosity and boredom.
Because of my actions the middleman may end up going bankrupt. So what? The industry will manage, the demand still exists.
It's all probably going to end up with a Steam-like system of licences, where the material itself is irrelevant, what you buy is an authorization to watch/read/play the product.
And with an incentive to do so, the producers will find a way to make the maintenance of such a system cheap.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby The Prince » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:30 am

Istvan wrote:
When was the last time you used the library outside of studying or doing a research paper for school? I can't think of the last time I had. But I don't have to tell you when I was last on a computer......


Last time I was at a library to check out something for fun? Less then a week ago.


Yeah well....using their computers to search child porn doesn't count.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby hbi2k » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:19 am

Good points. Especially the one about child porn.

New topic: what's the deal with urinals in public restrooms? There's always that one off to the side that's lower than the rest. Why? For short people? Then why not make them all lower? It's not like tall people can't use the short ones: gravity tends to do a good job of making sure the urine gets where it needs to go. If I were too short to use the tall urinals, I'd be pissed that there's only one that I can use.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Starnum » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:22 am

Heh, I always assumed the small one was for little boys, but small people could use it too. XD
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby The Prince » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:48 am

hbi2k wrote:Good points. Especially the one about child porn.

New topic: what's the deal with urinals in public restrooms? There's always that one off to the side that's lower than the rest. Why? For short people? Then why not make them all lower? It's not like tall people can't use the short ones: gravity tends to do a good job of making sure the urine gets where it needs to go. If I were too short to use the tall urinals, I'd be pissed that there's only one that I can use.


I use the lower one so my chimpo don't get wet.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Mail » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:39 pm

Starnum wrote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Will there ever be a second season to the Berserk anime?

As of now, there are no official reports of such a thing. Therefore one can only wonder and hope. However, the majority agrees that the chances are very slim.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About time to change this one I think :D
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby legato » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:36 pm

Not yet, but soon...
This might still become something else than an anime series/season as far as we know.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Istvan » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:13 am

legato wrote:Not yet, but soon...
This might still become something else than an anime series/season as far as we know.


Well, acording to Starnum the latest chapter says "New anime project starts", so maybe it is confirmed.
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby Starnum » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:03 am

Yeah, I've already thought about this. I'll change it in the future. I'm just waiting to see what exactly this anime is going to be. Is it actually a "second season" of the anime, or will it be a movie / OVA. We shall wait and see. Regardless I will eventually change that entry in some form. ;)
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Re: Evil-Genius's Berserk Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Postby dialdfordesi » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:10 am

This is berserk-ish in that it's manga related, but I did not think it warranted a new topic. I recently got a macbook and was wondering what type of image viewing software you guys recommend. On my PCs and laptops I just used the default program and the left/right arrows.
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