Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Evil_Genius' Berserk community, Kentaro Miura's epic masterpiece, still active and translated. (Please don't ask about older Volumes. Buy from DarkHorse and support Miura.)

Moderator: EG Members

The Herald
Tastes like burning!
Posts: 1119
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:24 am
Location: Cana-duh

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by The Herald »

I just have all of the same astrology as Griffith, in reality I'm nothing like him. I'm more like half way between Roderick and Isidro. Smart and calculating like Roderick, but still a clutz like Isidro and I always need to prove myself to my superiors like him.
Audentis Fortuna Juvet - Virgil
Istvan
Crusher of Dreams
Posts: 1826
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:18 pm
Location: The deepest depths of the Primordial Darkness

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by Istvan »

The Herald wrote:I just have all of the same astrology as Griffith, in reality I'm nothing like him. I'm more like half way between Roderick and Isidro. Smart and calculating like Roderick, but still a clutz like Isidro and I always need to prove myself to my superiors like him.
A likely story. You're probably very similar to Griffith, but want to lure us into lowering our guard so that you can betray us at a later date! Admit it, you fiend!!!
User avatar
hbi2k
Augh! Bright sky fire burn eyes!
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 2:54 am
Contact:

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by hbi2k »

Remember the scene directly after Guts assassinates Count Julius, when he and Caska overhear Griffith speechifying on the nature of friendship to Princess Charlotte? Just before Griffith starts in with his philosophizing, Caska tears a strip of cloth from the sleeve of her shirt and uses it to bandage an arrow wound in Guts' arm.

Now, maybe it's just the G/C shipper in me coming out, but I always thought that made a nice little image, and it also reminds me of something I read about back in the prehistoric days when I was in school. A big part of the concept of chivalry back in the Middle Ages was a knight's duty to women, and one element of that (at least in the romanticized literary version-- it's unclear to what extent these customs were historically practiced by actual knights) was called courtly love. In short, a knight would often pledge his love and service to a high-ranking lady. If she accepted his pledge, she would bestow on him a token, usually a brightly colored scarf or handkerchief that she would tie around his upper arm before he went into battle for her. Sound familiar?

Of course, we also have a nice bit of juxtaposition of contrasting elements here, because the idea behind courtly love is that the lady was supposed to be unattainable-- she would be vastly above the knight's station, and she was married as often as not. The knight was only ever supposed to love her from afar, never to actually end up with her.
Caska is, naturally, by no means unattainable for Guts, being neither spoken for nor of a higher class than he is. Meanwhile in this same scene we've got Princess Charlotte, who fits the courtly love archetype much better, and who Griffith nevertheless attains, with disastrous consequences (think what happened after Lancelot did the deed with Queen Guinevere).

Not long after this, Charlotte also gives Griffith a token (the lodestone statuette). It's interesting to note that while Charlotte's token is nicely symbolic yet practically worthless, Caska's has immediate, practical value. And while Charlotte's was inherited as part of her high station (it originally belonged to her mother, the deceased former queen), Caska's came from herself-- almost literally off her own back. And at this point in the story she doesn't even like Guts very much! I'd say that these tokens, seemingly a minor detail, reveal a lot about these two women and the men who love (in a physical, if not necessarily emotional sense in Griffith's case) them.
Berserk: The Abridged Series: Beating a dead horse with another dead horse.
User avatar
The Prince
Tastes like burning!
Posts: 1147
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:31 am
Location: Near a computer

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by The Prince »

Well done hbi2K

-BTW, always felt this post was more befitting of this thread.

".....the straw that pushes him into sacrificing everyone was his acknowledgement and resentment that Guts was the better man. As well as blaming Guts for putting himself in harms way when he left the Hawks, as without Guts by his side, he was left a broken man......a man without a dream.

It is ironic that when Griffith was caught by the castle guard upon leaving the Princess' quarters, we saw him reaching for a sword which he no longer had (briefly forgetting it was lost in his fight with Guts). IMO the missing sword symbolized Guts, who over the years had become Griffith's "sword", a sword no longer at his side."
Image
Let's put a smile on that face...............
User avatar
Aetherfukz
Tastes like burning!
Posts: 1249
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:56 pm
Location: My own private hell...
Contact:

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by Aetherfukz »

hbi2k wrote:It's interesting to note that while Charlotte's token is nicely symbolic yet practically worthless, Caska's has immediate, practical value. And while Charlotte's was inherited as part of her high station (it originally belonged to her mother, the deceased former queen), Caska's came from herself-- almost literally off her own back. And at this point in the story she doesn't even like Guts very much! I'd say that these tokens, seemingly a minor detail, reveal a lot about these two women and the men who love (in a physical, if not necessarily emotional sense in Griffith's case) them.
And that's exactly why Caska was one of the best woman in fiction and why we need her back to her old self.
Image
The Herald
Tastes like burning!
Posts: 1119
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:24 am
Location: Cana-duh

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by The Herald »

Another reason why Casca is one of the best women in fiction and is part of one of the best romances is because she is Guts' equal, at least at the point when they fell in love. There is a lot of work yet to do to give Casca back the respect she one had, but it will happen, in one way or another.
Audentis Fortuna Juvet - Virgil
User avatar
The Prince
Tastes like burning!
Posts: 1147
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:31 am
Location: Near a computer

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by The Prince »

The Herald wrote:Another reason why Casca is one of the best women in fiction and is part of one of the best romances is because she is Guts' equal, at least at the point when they fell in love. There is a lot of work yet to do to give Casca back the respect she one had, but it will happen, in one way or another.
Come on now. :shock:

If Casca was Guts equal she wouldn't have gone insane.

Casca "was" a decent character (seminole as far as the storyline is concerned), but she was certainly never Guts equal. Actually it wasn't until after Griffith's capture and she had fell in love w/ Guts that I began to warm up to her.....which was short lived

-At the risk of sounding unpopular.......

Do people forget the events leading up to the "Gut's 100 man slaughter" ordeal?

In terms of dead weight, IMO Caska was almost no better as she is now. Their relationship has always been one-sided, with Guts being on the short-end.
Image
Let's put a smile on that face...............
User avatar
Hyuri
imanewbie
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:00 pm

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by Hyuri »

Buuhan1 wrote:I've had seen tho two Hyuri posted before some months ago here: http://www.berserkchronicles.com/englis ... rces01.htm do you work for that site, or did your research happen to bring forth the same results?
Sorry for the late reply, I only have internet access during college vacations, which is twice a year.

So, to answer your question. My first post related to M.C. Escher's "Another World" happened by accident. I started looking at his work a few months before I started reading Berserk. It came as a shocker to me when I saw a representation of Escher's work in the Berserk manga.

My second post originated from my high school years when we where studying World History (or atleast I think it was World History) and our teacher started talking about the plague. He showed us this picture in our book. When I saw the costume in the Manga it just seemed so familiar I just became obssesed with it. So I did some research, and after some hours I found the article on Wikipedia.

So, in a sense, you could say I came to the same results as the ones found in BerserkChronicles. Kinda sparked my interest again. I wouldn't mind taking a look into their findings. Which is exactly what I will do :D
Image
Signature by HylianShroom, you can find him at www.Zeldauniverse.net/forums
shcnoff
imanewbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:22 am

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by shcnoff »

excuse if i'm backtracking a little. but i liked the religious discussions from page seven. it seems like miura's depiction of religion is that it's just a contsruct of man's subconscious, but that magic is real. i mean, he makes religions look like a joke at best and a horrible lie at least, but glorifies magic to proportions that rival final fantasy. well, no solar system destroying meteor yet. try reading a book that attempts to teach magic and then read the chapters where schierke gives a lesson, prepares materials, invokes spirits, etc. miura is more concise and accesible at explaining magical principles than any author i've heard of. there's a book called modern magick that takes like thirty pages to just explain shcierke's pentagram ritual, which by the way is our main introduction to the little witch and also the most basic ritual in kabbalic (sp?) schools of magic. of course he does provide us with a negative version of magic with the kushan sorcerer, but i mean, the things they can do are still pretty cool. also, if griffith views magical power as a threat (like when the new band of the hawk killed the forest witch), then it stands to reason in miura's world, magic power is from a different source than the IoE's, which is man's collected subconcious desires. also, in hindu magic the kundalini is represented as a snake in shape, although it's the spiritual energy arising from the base of the spine, not a literal snake with the power to destroy a giant warship. but it is the source of power for the "practicing" hindu magician, as it is the sorcerer's in the manga. sorry i forgot his name. the guy in charge of magical creatures.
let your logic be your guide
Istvan
Crusher of Dreams
Posts: 1826
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:18 pm
Location: The deepest depths of the Primordial Darkness

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by Istvan »

also, if griffith views magical power as a threat (like when the new band of the hawk killed the forest witch), then it stands to reason in miura's world, magic power is from a different source than the IoE's, which is man's collected subconcious desires.
Not really. It works just as well that magic is a threat to Griffith because its power comes from the same source as his own. In line with this, Schierke is pretty specific (during the fight against the trolls, when she's talking to the priest on the roof of the church) that the "spirits" she calls on for magic are formed from humans belief in them.
shcnoff
imanewbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:22 am

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by shcnoff »

i thought she said the directional spirits she summoned were directional angels from vatican scriptures. ceremonial magic is derived from levitical traditions, so there is a lot of dovetailing in real life between western magic and western religion. i mean, miura can do whatever he wants once we get to elfhelm, but right now that's the difference i see in the berserk world between the religions and magical traditions. i mean, how can guts fight against griffith if he doesn't get access to a power that can hurt him? so far the brand is at least less of a problem for him. remember guts' face when the old witch first told him she could put a seal on it? i thought zodd was standing behind her or something.
let your logic be your guide
User avatar
Rolos
Tastes like burning!
Posts: 1001
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by Rolos »

Basing my opinion on what I have read so far, I think its pretty obvious that the different layers of the berserk universe are simply the different levels of human perception.
What does that mean?
What magic users do when they transverse the different layers of reality is that they manage to retain they individuality while they immerse themselves in the less individualized perceptions of the world, the most basic ones. That way, they can interact with reality at its most basic levels, which directly affects the most complex ones.

I am not sure I am saying it right.....let me borrow an image some guys from Skullknight.net made:

Image

I think that image pretty much makes my point.

Pd: If something stated above doesn't make sense, or simply just doesn't sound right, please tell me, I am trying to perfect my english.

Pd 2: Image

:? He doesn't look THAT impressed to me.
One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings.
~Diogenes of Sinope
User avatar
42ndEndOfTheWorld
This is my new home
Posts: 228
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Serbia, rotten city of Novi Sad

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by 42ndEndOfTheWorld »

Rolos wrote:Basing my opinion on what I have read so far, I think its pretty obvious that the different layers of the berserk universe are simply the different levels of human perception.
What does that mean?
What magic users do when they transverse the different layers of reality is that they manage to retain they individuality while they immerse themselves in the less individualized perceptions of the world, the most basic ones. That way, they can interact with reality at its most basic levels, which directly affects the most complex ones.

I am not sure I am saying it right.....let me borrow an image some guys from Skullknight.net made:

Image

I think that image pretty much makes my point.
Image
Sura
imanewbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:16 am
Location: Wales

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by Sura »

yup 100 years war was in France after the French king Charles the vi and pope Benedict the xiii allied with the last price of Wales Owain Glyndwr to overthrow the English king King Henry v.

look at the cool castle's they built

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ca ... arfonshire

Conwy castle is identical to the castle the band of the hawk fight Zodd.
User avatar
Tonbo
Mastered PM
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: I am the one who lives in the darkness, and shatters it.

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by Tonbo »

Sura wrote:yup 100 years war was in France after the French king Charles the vi and pope Benedict the xiii allied with the last price of Wales Owain Glyndwr to overthrow the English king King Henry v.

look at the cool castle's they built

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ca ... arfonshire

Conwy castle is identical to the castle the band of the hawk fight Zodd.
Henry V was a bad ass. Arrow to the face, nothing doing. Although as I recall, Henry V came to power after Glyndwr's final defeat and pretty much dominated France up until his death. And yes, Conwy is amazing. Touring the castles of Wales was definitely one of my favorite life experiences.
User avatar
Aeriel
Mastered PM
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by Aeriel »

First twenty-something volumes of Berserk that I've downloaded were from thehawks.org. At the beginning of each volume, they had a page with Gutts and Griffith, with the inscription in the top-right part of the image: "in this world, some people born are like keys that move the world and exist having no connection to the social hierarchy established by man". Can you tell me, is this a part of the original volumes, or just something they put in for the flavour?

I ask because I found on the net the following paragraph: "there are men, wrote Aristotle, so godlike, so exceptional, that they naturally, by right of their extraordinary gifts, transcend all moral judgment or constitutional control: 'There is no law which embraces men of that caliber: they are themselves law. "
User avatar
DrPepperPro
Dirty Sennin
Posts: 2216
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:16 pm

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by DrPepperPro »

It sounds like what Griffith said in volume 3 during the flashback. Also that part was in the anime but i forget when.

Image

so ya good connection with the Aristotle quote.
shcnoff
imanewbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:22 am

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by shcnoff »

found this http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com entry for covenant, hebrew berit . not trying to say the syrian beherit isn't legitimate. but probably they're from the same root, or one serves as the other's root.
An agreement between two contracting parties, originally sealed with blood; a bond, or a law; a permanent religious dispensation. The old, primitive way of concluding a covenant (, "to cut a covenant") was for the covenanters to cut into each other's arm and suck the blood, the mixing of the blood rendering them "brothers of the covenant" (see Trumbull, "The Blood Covenant," pp. 5 et seq., 322; W. R. Smith, "Religion of the Semites," pp. 296 et seq., 460 et seq.; compare Herodotus, iii. 8, iv. 70). Whether "berit" is to be derived from "barah" =to cut or from a root cognate with the Assyrian "berit" = fetter (see Nathauael Schmidt, in Cheyne and Black,"Encyc. Bibl." s.v."Covenant"), or whether both Assyrian and Hebrew come from "barah"= to cut (compare "asar" = covenant and bracelet in Arabic; see Trumbull, l.c. pp. 64 et seq.), can not be decided here. A rite expressive of the same idea is (see Jer. xxxiv. 18; compare Gen. xv. et seq.) the cutting of a sacrificial animal into two parts, between which the contracting parties pass, showing thereby that they are bound to each other; the eating together of the meat, which usually follows, reiterating the same idea.
now the idea of a blood covenant is nothing new to me, and it's done no service by this source; but what i didn't know was that the hebrew word for a covenant was this etymologically similar to behelit.
let your logic be your guide
User avatar
DrPepperPro
Dirty Sennin
Posts: 2216
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:16 pm

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by DrPepperPro »

While reading through Conan the Barbarian, I saw this poem:

Believe green buds awaken in the spring,
That autumn paints the leaves with somber fire;

Believe I held my heart inviolate
To lavish on one man my hot desire.

– The Song of Bêlit.


That 2nd part kinda describes Griffith. And then of course "Bêlit" is nearly the same as behelit. Now I know Miura has said he based some stuff from Conan, but this is just a small poem amongst so much else. So, coincidence or not, we'll probably never now.
User avatar
eldur
notanewb
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:42 pm

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by eldur »

I was at class when i saw something interesting (i was sooo bored i only wanted to end and go home).
Here you can see an organic molecule, with a connection to berserk! Strange things life brings to me...

Farnesene
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term farnesene refers to a set of six closely related chemical compounds which all are sesquiterpenes. α-Farnesene and β-farnesene are isomers, differing by the location of one double bond. α-Farnesene is 3,7,11-trimethyl-1,3,6,10-dodecatetraene and β-farnesene is 7,11-dimethyl-3-methylene-1,6,10-dodecatriene. The alpha form can exist as four stereoisomers that differ about the geometry of two of its three internal double bonds (the stereoisomers of the third internal double bond are identical). The beta isomer exists as two stereoisomers about the geometry of its central double bond.

Two of the α-farnesene stereoisomers are reported to occur in Nature. (E,E)-α-Farnesene is the most common isomer. It is found in the coating of apples, and other fruits, and it is responsible for the characteristic green apple odour.


So.... farnesene: an organic compound from apples... you don't need to remember the scene in the manga, uh?

BTW.... hi everybody, I'm eldur. I've been reading the forum since chapters 260s, but this is my first post, at last.
User avatar
DrPepperPro
Dirty Sennin
Posts: 2216
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:16 pm

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by DrPepperPro »

Someone found posted this on theblackswordsman.com forum, but I don't think he will post it here but it is really interesting.
Arua wrote:K, i dunno if this has been mentioned before or not, but here goes..

In my art history class we're studying surrealism style art, and we were looking at a few paintings and stuff. I just happened to notice 2 particular ones, both by the same artist, Salvador Dali, that resemble berserk concepts. Maybe Muira is a fan of Dali's work, so he articulated some of his surrealism into berserk.
____________________________________________________
THE PICTURES ARE KINDA GROTESQUE/NASTY/HAS NAKED PPL

here they are:

Image

the figure in this piece (narcissus) kinda resembles griffith and reminded me when griffith was looking at himself in the water, trying to do suicide cuz he was all weak and couldn't even walk after he got rescued from that tower.... That's when he found the behelit, is portrayed as an egg in that painting. The painting itself is called "metamorphosis of narcissus" which, correct me if im wrong, was this handsome but kinda conceited dude who liked to look at himself in water's reflection. Sounds like Griffith to me ^^
"The painting shows Narcissus sitting in a pool, gazing down. Not far away there is a decaying stone figure which corresponds closely to him but is perceived quite differently; as a hand holding up a bulb or egg from which a narcissus is growing" <-- thank you wikipedia ^^
that has to have sum kind of connection.. don't u think?

next...
Image

this one is called "geopoliticus child watching the birth of the new man".....and u guys can guess wat that one kinda looks like.. it's the birth of femto, the gayest and most hated person in the universe lol but yea.. i think there must be a connection here, like there are apostles/godhand watching femto tearing thru the egg like paper lol again, the egg represents the behelit, and the rebirth of Griffith as femto, the gayest godhand member ever.

This Salvator Dali guy has a lot of other surrealist style paintings that resemble berserk somewhat, but too lazy to continue.. anywayz I think they may be a connection sumwhere..

maybe Muira's ideas are influenced by these paintings? maybe not? maybe coincidence? who knows, I wanna know wat u guys think ^^
User avatar
War Machine
Tastes like burning!
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:30 pm
Location: San Diego now

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by War Machine »

Arua wrote:it's the birth of femto, the gayest and most hated person in the universe lol but yea..
One has to step back and take a deep breath to be able to comprehend such multifarious lexicon and extensive eloquence.

So lets go back at the pictures...

The first picture really resembles the picture at the beginning of each Berserk anime episode, when the narrator says: "In this world..." in a deep voice. I don't quite see the second though, other that the man is being born of an egg.
"Clearly my escape had not been anticipated, or my benevolent master would not have expended such efforts to prevent me from going. And if my departure displeased him, then that was a victory, however small, for me." - Raziel
User avatar
DrPepperPro
Dirty Sennin
Posts: 2216
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:16 pm

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by DrPepperPro »

War Machine wrote:
Arua wrote:it's the birth of femto, the gayest and most hated person in the universe lol but yea..
One has to step back and take a deep breath to be able to comprehend such multifarious lexicon and extensive eloquence.
Whoo boy, I'm out of breath, from stepping back so far and breathing out so much.

Ya second one's not as close. It reminds me of the volume 13 cover though, which I was just reading yesterday.

no wait it's volume 12, man I have a bad memory.
Eldo
Of The Abyss
Posts: 7435
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Yours or mine?

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by Eldo »

DrPepperPro wrote:While reading through Conan the Barbarian, I saw this poem:

Believe green buds awaken in the spring,
That autumn paints the leaves with somber fire;

Believe I held my heart inviolate
To lavish on one man my hot desire.

– The Song of Bêlit.


That 2nd part kinda describes Griffith. And then of course "Bêlit" is nearly the same as behelit. Now I know Miura has said he based some stuff from Conan, but this is just a small poem amongst so much else. So, coincidence or not, we'll probably never now.
I haven't read Conan since I was a kid, but wasn't Belit a goddess or a pirate queen or something?
Image

I don't think half the toilet seats in the world are as clean as I should like; and only half of those are half as clean as they deserve. - tsubaimomo, July 26, 2010 3:00 am
User avatar
DrPepperPro
Dirty Sennin
Posts: 2216
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:16 pm

Re: Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Post by DrPepperPro »

Uhhh... I never read past that poem for some reason.
Post Reply