Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

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Find the Berserk connections (Symbolism thread)

Postby psi29a » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:36 pm

Ubik (one of the God Hand) of Berserk is based on the following:

Wiki-Pedia wrote:The term Ubik comes from the Latin word ubique, which means “everywhere.” It is also the source of the English language word ubiquitous, which means being or seeming to be everywhere at the same time. This may be considered ironic, considering that Ubik is much sought-after and rare in the novel, but it may also indicate that Ubik is a life-force of sorts.

Ubik also references Plato’s idea of Forms, great universals that define the essence of all matter. When the world begins to seemingly regress in time and all objects in it (such as television sets, refrigerators and automobiles) become that time period’s version of that object, Chip remarks that each is coming closer to barest, simplest Form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubik

The idea of Forms is one of the works that made Plato a common read for those in University. In this is also discussed the 'idea of Evil' which is of great importance in the world of Berserk.

<><><><>
The objective here is the find something in Berserk and try to flush it out and see where Miura may have gotten his idea from. This increases our understanding of the symbolism used by Miura and how his Berserk Universe works.

Please use the above as an example of how to make a reference, and hopefully more people can contribute and talk about what they find.
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Postby psi29a » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:42 pm

Slan, the female member of the God Hand. A temptress who appears to have a "fascination" with Guts. Her name is inspired from A. E. van Vogt's Slan.

Wiki-Pedia wrote:Slan is the name of a type of fictional race of superbeings in a novel of the same name by A. E. van Vogt. They are named after their alleged creator, Samuel Lann. The protagonist of the novel is Jommy Cross, who is a Slan.

Slans are the product of human evolution and have the psychic abilities to read minds and are super-intelligent. They possess near limitless stamina, "nerves of steel", & superior strength and speed. When they are ill or seriously injured, they go into a healing trance automatically.

There are two kinds of Slans. One has tendrils and can read the minds of ordinary humans and telepathically communicate with other Slans. The tendrils are hidden but rise when the Slan is engaged in telephathic activity. The Slans are hunted to near extinction and exterminated. The other type of slan is tendrilless. They are still super intelligent but do not have psychic capabilities, only the ability to hide their thoughts from the first type of Slans. Kier Gray is the leader of the human society and promises to exterminate the Slans. The novel opens with Jommy Cross, who is a telephatic Slan of the first type is brought with her mother to the capital, Centropolis. They are both discovered, and Jommy's mother is killed before his eyes. Jommy is only 9 years old and manages to escape. Jommy Cross is not only the heir to the brilliant inventions of his father, but he represents the last hope of his race to save it of a genocide. Because of the importance of his mission, he is deterred by various enemies. Jommy seeks to destroy Kier and in confronting him discovers a terrible secret.
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Postby Loeviz » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:55 pm

I think it´s better to just wait and see what you find Psi, you seem to know where to look :D
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Postby Damien » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:46 pm

Cool Idea, I looked for some stuff but found nothing, so I will leave this to the other people and just read what they find Image ..
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Postby psi29a » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:49 pm

Best thing to do is just find something that interests you in berserk, research and tell us about it.
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Postby Buzkashi » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:50 am

I tried to make a thread like this once....*sigh* it failed.


Geiseric
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Geiseric the Lame (circa 389 – January 25, 477), also spelled as Gaiseric or Genseric the Lame, was the King of the Vandals and Alans (428–477) and was one of the key players in the troubles of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century. During his nearly 50 years of rule, he raised a relatively insignificant Germanic tribe to the status of a major Mediterranean power — which after he died, entered a swift decline and eventual collapse.

Geiseric the Lame, whose name means "Caesar-king" or possibly "spear-king", was an illegitimate son of King Godigisel; he is assumed to have been born near Lake Balaton around the year 389. After his father's death, Geiseric was the second most powerful man among the Vandals, after the new king, his half-brother Gunderic. After Gunderic's death in 428, Geiseric was elected king. Brilliant and well-versed in the military arts, he immediately began to seek ways of increasing the power and wealth of his people, who then resided in the Andalusia region of Spain. The Vandals had suffered greatly from attacks from the more numerous Visigoths, and not long after taking power, King Geiseric decided to leave Spain to this rival Germanic tribe. In fact, he seems to have started building a Vandal fleet even before he raised to kinghood.

Taking advantage of a dispute between Boniface, Roman governor of North Africa, and the Roman government, Geiseric ferried all 80,000 of his people across to Africa in 429. Once there, he won many battles over the weak and divided Roman defenders and quickly overran the territory now comprising modern Morocco and northern Algeria. His Vandal army laid siege to the city of Hippo Regius (where Augustine had recently been bishop — he died during the siege), taking it after 14 months of bitter fighting. The next year, Roman Emperor Valentinian III recognized Geiseric as king of the lands he and his men had conquered.

In 439, after casting a covetous eye on the great city of Carthage for a decade, he took the city, apparently without any fighting. The Romans were caught unaware, and Geiseric captured a large part of the western Roman navy docked in the port of Carthage. Added to his own burgeoning fleet, the Kingdom of the Vandals now threatened the Empire for mastery of the Mediterranean Sea. Carthage, meanwhile, became the new Vandal capital and an enemy of Rome for the first time since the Punic Wars. With the help of their fleet, the Vandals soon subdued Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica and the Balearic Islands. Geiseric strengthened the Vandal defenses and fleet, and regulated the positions of Arians and Catholics. In 442 the Romans acknowledge the Carthaginian conquests, and furthermore recognised the Vandal kingdom as an independent country rather than one officially subsidiary to the Roman rule. The area in Algeria that had remained for the larger part independent of the Vandals turned from a Roman province into an ally.

For the next 30 years, Geiseric and his soldiers sailed up and down the Mediterranean, living as pirates and raiders. One legend has it that Geiseric was unable to mount a horse because of a fall he'd taken as a young man; so he assuaged his desire for military glory on the sea.

In 455, Roman emperor Valentinian III was murdered. The person who ordered his murder, Petronius Maximus, usurped the throne. Geiseric was of the opinion that these acts voided his 442 peace treaty with Valentian, and within weeks, on May 31, King Gaiseric and his men landed on Italian soil and marched on Rome, where Pope Leo I implored him not to destroy the ancient city or murder its inhabitants. Geiseric agreed and the gates of Rome were thrown open to him and his men. Maximus, who fled rather than fight the Vandal warlord, was killed by a Roman mob outside the city. Although history remembers the Vandal sack of Rome as extremely brutal (and their act made the word 'vandalism' a term for any group of wantonly destructive people), in actuality Geiseric honored his pledge not to make war on the people of Rome, and the Vandals did not do much destruction (or even any notable destruction) in the city; they did however take gold, silver and many other things of value away from the city. He also took with him Empress Licinia Eudoxia, Valentinian's widow, and her daughters, including Eudocia, who married Geiseric's son Huneric after arriving in Carthage, and many important people were taken hostage for even more riches.

In 468, Geiseric's kingdom was the target of the last concerted effort by the two halves of the Roman Empire. They wished to subdue the Vandals and end their pirate raids. But the Vandal king, against long odds, defeated the eastern Roman fleet commanded by Basilicus off Cape Bon. It has been reported that the total invasion force on the fleet counted 100,000 soldiers. The Romans abandoned the campaign and Geiseric remained master of the western Mediterranean until his death, ruling from the Strait of Gibraltar all the way to Tripolitania.

In 474, he made peace with the eastern Roman Empire. Finally, on January 25, 477, at the advanced age of 87 (some sources say 77), King Geiseric died at Carthage.

In his internal politics, Geiseric gave freedom of religion to the Catholics, but demanded (conversion to) Arianism from all his close advisors. The common folk had low taxes under his reign, as most of the tax pressure was on the rich Roman families and the Catholic clergy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaiseric

Rakshasa
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A rakshasa (alternately, raksasa or rakshas) is a demon or evil spirit in Hinduism. A female rakshasa is called a rakshasi, and a female rakshasa in human form is a manusha-rakshasi. The Ramayana describes them as being created from Brahma's foot; elsewhere, they are descended from Pulastya, or from Khasa, or from Nirriti and Nirrita. Many Rakshasa were particularly wicked humans in previous incarnations. Rakshasas are notorious for disturbing sacrifices, desecrating graves, harassing priests, possessing human beings, and so on. Their fingernails are poisonous, and they feed on human flesh and spoiled food. They are shapechangers and magicians, and often appear in the forms of humans, dogs, and large birds. Hanuman, during a visit to the rakshasas' home in Sri Lanka, observed that the demons could come in any form imaginable.

The great ten-headed demon Ravana, enemy of Rama, was king of the rakshasas. His younger brother Vibhishana was a rare good-hearted rakshasa; he was exiled by his brother the king, who was displeased by his behavior. Vibhishana later became an ally of Rama and a ruler in Lanka. Other notable rakshasas include the guardian god Nairitya, who is associated with the southwest direction.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakshasas
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Postby Luck- » Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:23 am

Whoa. Thats one long post. I'll check it out later. Nice thread Psi more info for the beserk fans.
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Postby Tempest » Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:51 am

I found this one interesting...

Wiki-Pedia wrote:The Farnese family was an influential family in Renaissance Italy. Important members include Pope Paul III and the Dukes of Parma. Several important architectural works and antiquities are associated with the Farnese family, either through construction or acquisition. These include the Palazzo Farnese in Rome and the Villa Farnese in Caprarola.


Kelpies didn't just come out of Miura's ass....who knew?

Wiki-Pedia wrote:The kelpie (each uisge, anglicised - i.e. water-horse - in Gaelic) is a supernatural shape-shifting water horse from Gaelic folklore that is believed to haunt the rivers and lochs of Scotland. In Orkney the creature was called the Nuggle, and in Shetland a similar creature was called the Shoopiltee. It was probably borrowed from the Norse mythology of the Viking settlers, since it also appears in Scandinavian folklore where it is known by the name Bäckahästen, the brook horse.

In Scandinavia, the brook horse was a transformation of the Nix, a water spirit in the shape of a man. It was often described as a majestic white horse that would appear near rivers, particularly during foggy weather. Anyone who climbed onto its back would not be able to get off again. The horse would then jump into the river, drowning the rider. The brook horse could also be harnessed and made to plough, either because it was trying to trick a person or because the person had tricked the horse into it.
The Nix as a brook horse by Theodor Kittelsen, another depiction of the nix as a white kelpie
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The Nix as a brook horse by Theodor Kittelsen, another depiction of the nix as a white kelpie

The kelpie sometimes appeared as a rough hairy man who would grip and crush travellers, but it most commonly took the form of a beautiful tame horse standing by a stream or river. If anyone mounted it, it would charge into the deepest part of the water, submerging and taking the rider with it.

They would sometimes interbreed with humans' horses, and the foals were said to be fine fleetfooted horses.

The kelpie was also said to warn of forthcoming storms by wailing and howling.

Rarely, kelpies could be benign. The folktale The Kelpie's Wife tells of one in Loch Garve, Ross-shire, who had a human wife.

The Jethro Tull song Kelpie, from the 1988 album 20 Years of Jethro Tull, tells of a young woman tempted away by a kelpie. [1]
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Postby Femto » Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:31 am

Wikipedia wrote:Femto is a prefix (see all prefixes) to a unit and means that it is 10-15 times this unit, or, one quindecillionth (European) or one quadrillionth (American). Examples are one femtosecond or one femtometre.

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Postby LordMune » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:13 pm

Tempest wrote:Kelpies didn't just come out of Miura's ass....who knew?
I did. :sleep:

Femto wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:Femto is a prefix (see all prefixes) to a unit and means that it is 10-15 times this unit, or, one quindecillionth (European) or one quadrillionth (American). Examples are one femtosecond or one femtometre.

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Postby Khelegond » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:53 pm

About Kelpies...it's the same with trolls, ogres, and such. Miura always used a lot of common myths. A Kelpie is famous for people who play RPG :) And about Femto - when you enter a P2P program like eDonkey, it says something like "Total Size of Shared Files: ??Femtobytes" :)

I, being an engineer, already knew that :D
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Postby psi29a » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:58 pm

Here is an excerpt from Book VII of Plato's Republic that may help explain the concept of what I mean by the term "Collective Human Subconcious".

Plato wrote:"Next, then," I said. "make an image of our nature in its education and want of education, likening it to a condition of the following kind. See human beings as though they were in an underground cave-like dwelling with its entrance, a long one, open to the light across the whole width of the cave. They are in it from childhood with their legs and necks in bonds so that they are fixed, seeing only in front of them, unable because of the bond to turn their heads all the way around. Their light is from a fire burning far above and behind them. Between the fire and the prisoners there is a road above, along which we see a wall. built like the partitions puppet-handlers set in front of the human beings and over which they show the puppets".

"I see," he said.

"Then also see along this wall human beings carrying all sorts of artifacts, which project above the wall, and statues of men and other animals wrought from stone, wood, and every kind of material; as is to be expected, some of the carriers utter sound while others are silent."

"It's a strange image," he said, "and strange prisoners you're telling of."

"They're like us," I said. "For in the first place, do you suppose such men would have seen anything of themselves and one another other than the shadows cast by the fire on the side of the cave facing them?"

"How could they," he said, "if they had been compelled to keep their heads motionless throughout life?"

"And what about the things that are carried by? Isn't it the same with them?"

"Of course."

"If they were able to discuss things with one another don't you believe they would hold that they are naming these things going by before them that they see?"

"Necessarily."

"And what if the prison also had an echo from the side facing them? Whenever one of the men passing by happens to utter a sound, do you suppose they would believe that anything other than the passing shadow was uttering the sound?"

"No, by Zeus," he said. "I don't."




"Then most certainly," I said, "such men would hold that the truth is nothing other than the shadows of artificial things."

"Most necessarily," he said.

"Now consider," I said, "what their release and healing from bonds and folly would be like if something of this sort were by nature to happen to them. Take a man who is released and suddenly compelled to stand up, to turn his neck around, to walk and look up toward the light; and who, moreover, in doing all this is in pain and, because he is dazzled, is unable to make out those things whose shadows he was before. What do you suppose he'd say if someone were to tell him that before he saw silly nothings, while now, because he is somewhat nearer to what IS and more turned toward beings, he sees more correctly; and, in particular, showing him each of the things that pass by, were to compel the man to answer his questions about what they are? Don't you suppose he'd be at a loss and believe that what was seen before is truer than what is now shown?"

"Yes," he said, "by far."

"And if he compelled him to look at the light itself, would his eyes hurt and would he flee, turning away to those things that he is able to make out and hold them to be really clearer than what is being shown?"

"So he would," he said.

"And if," I said, "some one dragged him away from there by force along the rough, steep, upward way and didn't let him go before he had dragged him out into the light of the sun, wouldn't he be distressed and annoyed at being so dragged? And when he came to the light, wouldn't he have his eyes full of its beam and be unable to see even one of the things now said to be true?"

"No, he wouldn't," he said, "at least not right away."

"Then I supposed he'd have to get accustomed, if he were going to see what's up above. At first he'd most easily make out the shadows; and after that the phantoms of the human beings and the other things in water; and, later, the things themselves. And from there he could turn to beholding the things in heaven and heaven itself, more easily at night, looking at the light of the stars and the moon, than by day, looking at the sun and sunlight."

"Of course." ...

... "Now reflect on this too," I said. "If such a man were to come down again and sit in the same seat, on coming suddenly from the sun would his eyes get infected with darkness?"

"Very much so," he said.

"And if he once more had to compete with those perpetual prisoners in forming judgments about those shadows while his vision was still dim, before his eyes had recovered, and if the time needed for getting accustomed were not at all short, wouldn't he be the source of laughter, and wouldn't it be said of him that he went up and came back with his eyes corrupted, and that it's not even worth trying to go up? And if they were somehow able to get their hands on and kill the man who attempts to release and lead up, wouldn't they kill him?"


From: "The Republic of Plato" translated with notes and an interpretive essay by Allan Bloom. Published by Basic Books Inc., New York, London in 1968.
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Postby Killfile » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:07 pm

Errrr.... I'm not sure how much relevance the Allegory of the Cave has to the human subconsciousness.

Plato's major point is that a person's understanding of the world is limited by what they already know. The people in the cave are the uneducated. They lack some fundamental knowledge that the people outside the cave have. They see certain things, but being unaware of what is really causing them, hypothesize and come to their own conclusions.

Here's the brain bender though -- within their contextual reality... aren't they right? The world is only as real as our perceptions of it. To those that have no experience outside the cave, the cave IS reality.

This isn't a human subconsciousness that Plato is referring to, but a stab at the very nature of reality and sentient thought within reality.

For those of you that find Plato a little intimidating... think of the Matrix. If you're still jacked in, you're in the cave. If you're coming in from the outside, you're not in the cave. When Neo is unhooked, he is lead out of the cave by those outside it allready.

I could never get a Plato thread off the ground in the Politics forum.
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Postby psi29a » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:11 pm

Killfile wrote:Errrr.... I'm not sure how much relevance the Allegory of the Cave has to the human subconsciousness.

Plato's major point is that a person's understanding of the world is limited by what they already know. The people in the cave are the uneducated. They lack some fundamental knowledge that the people outside the cave have. They see certain things, but being unaware of what is really causing them, hypothesize and come to their own conclusions.

Here's the brain bender though -- within their contextual reality... aren't they right? The world is only as real as our perceptions of it. To those that have no experience outside the cave, the cave IS reality.

This isn't a human subconsciousness that Plato is referring to, but a stab at the very nature of reality and sentient thought within reality.


That actually is the point, however Miura stretches it a bit to allow for alternate layers on top of reality. We are only aware of what is in front of us, in the Berserk work we have the Interstice, the Astral Plane, Vortex, and the Abyss. It is very hard to see what is 'really' going on in the world and how to change it if you unaware of the forces (Idea) that manipulate reality.
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Postby Sandman » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:01 pm

I have found a lot of simularities between Berserk and the first Final Fantasy game. They have Elfheim, a knight that wants to be king by sleeping with the kings daughter, some other ones too but cant remeber.
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Postby SirAileron » Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:55 am

Has someone tried looking for a person named Götts?
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Postby Libaax » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:09 am

I couldnt find anything about my favs Zodd and Judeou :(
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Postby newbified » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:42 pm

You can also find some connections between things like Norse Mythology, and some of the Berserk world.

Alfheim wrote:Alfheim ("elf home"), in Norse mythology, is one of the nine worlds. It is located on the highest level of the Norse universe. Also found on this level are the worlds of Asgard and Vanaheim. Alfheim is the palace of the god Freyr and the homeland of the elves of light. Neither the elves of light nor the elves of darkness, who live in Svartalfheim, participate in any of the events described in the Norse myths. Elves do, however, have active roles in the literature of quite a few of the other branches of Indo-European mythology.


Berserks wrote:In old-Norse sagas, they were warriors who dressed themselves in bear skins, to make use of the fear common people had for wild animals. They whipped themselves up to a sort of battle frenzy, biting their shields and howling like animals. They were ferocious fighters and seemingly insensitive to pain while this madness lasted; berserks made formidable enemies. In their rage they even attacked the boulders and trees of the forest; it was not uncommon that they killed their own people. The belief in berserks can be compared with the belief in werewolves; both are magical transformations of humans who assume the shape of an kindred animal.


The Berserks (Berserkers?) section could even be connected to Berserk more closely, as the shape of the Berserker armor took on the shape of the demon that seems to inhabit Gatts' rage, therefore distorting and manipulating the armor itself to appear like that of the animal.
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Postby Libaax » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:59 am

SirAileron wrote:Has someone tried looking for a person named Götts?


He is well know to Berserk fans so there isnt a point in looking him up.
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Postby MrFelony » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:34 pm

was Gotts a guy who led a peasent revolt against the teutonic knights or something that?
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Postby Skullkracker » Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:45 am

it was mentioned somewher in the past that he was a knight with a fake hand

hmmm...gonna look it up
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Postby Libaax » Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:59 am

You can read about him in the Miura interwiew where he was asked about this guy who is a little similer to Guts with his fake hand and all.
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Postby Starnum » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:30 am

Yeah, I thought that was a reference from the Interview.
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Postby Sandman » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:28 pm

Wasnt there really a war between England(Midland) and Chudar(Tudor) Empire? I remeber one of my history buff friends talking about it after he watched the anime.

Here it is... 1337 - Philip declares Edward's fiefs forfeit and begins harassing the frontiers of Aquitaine; Edward III, provoked by these attacks on his territories in France, declares himself king of France; "The Hundred Years' War " begins (ends 1453)

1348-Edward III establishes the Order of the Garter; Black Death (bubonic plague) reaches England

1453 - Bordeaux falls to the French, Hundred Years' War ends; In England, Henry VI becomes insane

So there was a hundred year war but there was no Tudor Empire but people with the last name Tudor that revolted and caused a civil war, the king goes insane after the hundred year war, there was a plague.
Its all there in history Miura just changed the times in which these events happened.
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Postby ucrzymofo87 » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:04 pm

there was a Hundred Year War between England and France I believe. also the Tudors were monarchs of England.
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